i2p.www/pages/meeting68.html

<H3>Tuesday, December 9, 2003 22:00:00 CET</H3>

<pre>

[22:02] &lt;jrand0m&gt; 0) welcome to $num 
[22:02] &lt;jrand0m&gt; 1) iip status 
[22:02] &lt;jrand0m&gt; 2) kademlia stuff + idn 
[22:02] &lt;jrand0m&gt; 3) peer profiling stuff 
[22:02] &lt;jrand0m&gt; 4) i2p services  
[22:02] &lt;jrand0m&gt; 5) stuff 
[22:02] &lt;jrand0m&gt; 0) welcome  
[22:02] &lt;jrand0m&gt; hi 
[22:03] &lt;jrand0m&gt; this is meeting 67 or 68...  
[22:03] &lt;jrand0m&gt; 1) iip status 
[22:03] &lt;jrand0m&gt; I dunno.  anyone know what the situation has been as of late? 
[22:04] &lt;jrand0m&gt; the iip devs aren't here, so... dunno. 
[22:04] &lt;jrand0m&gt; [ping] 
[22:04] &lt;jrand0m&gt; (last week I typed for probably 10 minutes before my client pinged me out...) 
[22:05] &lt;jrand0m&gt; (i'm not going to type anything else until I get a p0ng, damnit ;) 
[22:05] *** Nostradumbass (nostradum@anon.iip) has joined channel #iip-dev
[22:05] &lt;jrand0m&gt; 'lo Nostradumbass 
[22:06] &lt;Nostradumbass&gt; hi :)
[22:06] &lt;jrand0m&gt; ok cool, so I haven't pinged out, people are just lurking.  cool :) 
[22:06] * jrand0m hops on to the next agenda item
[22:06] &lt;Nostradumbass&gt; how's i2p coming?
[22:06] &lt;Nostradumbass&gt; sorry?
[22:06] &lt;jrand0m&gt; good lead in ;) 
[22:07] &lt;jrand0m&gt; agenda item 3) i2p 0.2.3 status :) 
[22:07] *** nerox (~nerox@anon.iip) has joined channel #iip-dev
[22:07] &lt;jrand0m&gt; there's been a lot of progress, even though I'm offline.  commited a truckload of code a few hours ago 
[22:07] &lt;jrand0m&gt; that includes an implementation of the kademlia netDb 
[22:08] &lt;jrand0m&gt; so I'm pretty confident we'll hit the release for 0.2.3 next week (which is basically kademlia netDb + a shell script) 
[22:08] &lt;jrand0m&gt; there have been a few more variations on the kademlia proto though to make things more relevent for i2p 
[22:09] &lt;jrand0m&gt; we will always have a very, very, /very/ sparse kademlia tree. 
[22:09] &lt;jrand0m&gt; 2^256 possible slots, and 1-10 values per peer in the network. 
[22:09] &lt;jrand0m&gt; so, thinking insanely overzealous, we still wont be using jack shit, and everything will be in the furthest out kbucket 
[22:10] &lt;jrand0m&gt; so some parts of kademlia are going to be quietly ignored ;)  but the basic gist stays the same, including the search algo &amp; distance metric 
[22:10] &lt;jrand0m&gt; idn, however, is dead in the water. 
[22:11] &lt;jrand0m&gt; the idea that i2p's netDb code could run off the same code as a publishing DHT was a silly little idea 
[22:11] &lt;jrand0m&gt; and has been promptly abandonded. 
[22:11] &lt;jrand0m&gt; idn is still generally a good idea, but I'm not going to spend my i2p dev time working on it 
[22:12] *** tusko (~tusko@anon.iip) has joined channel #iip-dev
[22:12] &lt;jrand0m&gt; but part of the 0.2.3 changes include a dramatic revamp of how we choose peers and organize router stats 
[22:12] &lt;jrand0m&gt; heya tusko 
[22:12] &lt;jrand0m&gt; that brings us to agenda item 3) peer profiling 
[22:12] &lt;jrand0m&gt; I've been pretty silly...and finally did some of the math 
[22:13] &lt;jrand0m&gt; the stats being gathered now are immense. 
[22:13] &lt;jrand0m&gt; about 6000 data points /per peer/ 
[22:13] &lt;duck&gt; what is peer profiling?
[22:13] &lt;jrand0m&gt; peer profiling is where the router keeps track of the performance of each peer so that it can decide who to use in the future 
[22:13] &lt;duck&gt; ah
[22:13] &lt;jrand0m&gt; (aka fast routers, reliable routers, etc) 
[22:13] &lt;duck&gt; the process that eats up my memory :)
[22:14] &lt;jrand0m&gt; heh actually that part isn't toooo bad 
[22:14] &lt;jrand0m&gt; though 6000 data points won't scale. 
[22:14] &lt;jrand0m&gt; 1000 routers @ 6000 data points each @ 4 bytes / data point = 24Mb 
[22:15] &lt;jrand0m&gt; though keeping detailed stats on a few hundred peers is probably fine, even as the net grows beyond that 
[22:15] &lt;jrand0m&gt; we /don't/ need to keep stats on everyone.  just routers we want to 'use' for our tunnels, garlic routing, and source routing. 
[22:16] &lt;jrand0m&gt; we could probably get away in the long term with just keeping track of a hundred or so peers. 
[22:16] &lt;jrand0m&gt; but, for now, I'm going to say fuckit. 
[22:16] &lt;jrand0m&gt; keep stats on all peers 
[22:16] &lt;duck&gt; ping
[22:16] &lt;jrand0m&gt; p0ng 
[22:17] &lt;duck&gt; will it try to learn about all peers?
[22:17] &lt;jrand0m&gt; right now, yes 
[22:17] &lt;duck&gt; oh wait, your last lines covered that
[22:17] &lt;jrand0m&gt; we also have some code for coallescing and running calculations on the peer profiles 
[22:18] &lt;jrand0m&gt; so one of those calculators will determine what peers to drop 
[22:18] &lt;jrand0m&gt; an example of the data set being collected: (Link: http://i2p.dnsalias.net/~jrandom/profile.txt)http://i2p.dnsalias.net/~jrandom/profile.txt 
[22:19] &lt;jrand0m&gt; (you'll notice lots of 0s :) 
[22:19] &lt;jrand0m&gt; I've written up a rough manifesto for peer selection and profiling, but need to get that onto the wiki 
[22:20] &lt;jrand0m&gt; but thats all 0.3 stuff, really.  0.2.3 just uses a little of it 
[22:21] &lt;jrand0m&gt; ok, thats it for the peer profiling.  lots more later, just giving a lil view into whats up 
[22:21] &lt;jrand0m&gt; (of course, as always, anyone who wants to get down and dirty and figure out what other stats / calculations / attacks / etc should be used would be *very* much appreciated) 
[22:22] &lt;jrand0m&gt; ok, 4) i2p services 
[22:23] &lt;jrand0m&gt; tc's site is awesome &amp; really reliable!  I finally got to nightblade's page as well, and its a cool blog ('plog' ;).. I just wish I could leave comments :) 
[22:23] &lt;jrand0m&gt; there's also duck's jabber server, which works fairly easily with the instructions posted to tc's board 
[22:24] &lt;jrand0m&gt; things sometimes act up a bit, but thats related to some bugs in the router &lt;= 0.2.2, and have been fixed (and will roll out in 0.2.3) 
[22:24] &lt;jrand0m&gt; the squid proxy is generally offline, since I'm offline too much to babysit my kaffe routers :/ 
[22:25] &lt;jrand0m&gt; so for the moment, the eepsites and the jabber chat is probably the most reliable things on i2p, all running on top of i2ptunnel 
[22:25] &lt;jrand0m&gt; what services would be cool to show up next? 
[22:25] &lt;duck&gt; I did try to run an ircd over i2ptunnel
[22:25] &lt;duck&gt; but before it got the full MOTD after logging in, I got ping timeouted already
[22:26] &lt;jrand0m&gt; d'oh 
[22:26] &lt;duck&gt; and that was on the same router
[22:26] &lt;duck&gt; so in the wild performance will be even worse
[22:26] &lt;jrand0m&gt; on the local router it pinged out?! 
[22:26] &lt;jrand0m&gt; local router should never ping anything out 
[22:26] &lt;jrand0m&gt; oh, except for that race bug 
[22:26] &lt;jrand0m&gt; (which is probably what it was, since it was local and the race is faster there) 
[22:26] &lt;duck&gt; irc client pinged out for not responding in time
[22:27] &lt;duck&gt; I'll retry with 0.2.3
[22:27] &lt;jrand0m&gt; word 
[22:27] &lt;duck&gt; though jabber is nice for now
[22:27] &lt;jrand0m&gt; totally 
[22:27] &lt;jrand0m&gt; and long term, irc is not the way to go 
[22:27] &lt;duck&gt; tc, jrandom and me are there to chat with!
[22:27] &lt;jrand0m&gt; hehe :) 
[22:28] &lt;jrand0m&gt; we need an IM and group chat solution that doesn't give cleartext to anyone unauthorized, and doesn't require centralized choke points 
[22:28] &lt;jrand0m&gt; (aka iip 2.0) 
[22:28] &lt;jrand0m&gt; now would be a nice time for userx to come back into the fold ;) 
[22:29] * jrand0m stops holding breath
[22:29] &lt;jrand0m&gt; an nntp server would /also/ really really rule. 
[22:29] &lt;duck&gt; I'll try that tomorrow
[22:29] &lt;jrand0m&gt; r0x0r 
[22:30] &lt;duck&gt; jabber is really nice to run other things over
[22:30] &lt;duck&gt; check out the jabber rpc specs
[22:30] &lt;duck&gt; (Link: http://www.pipetree.com/jabber/jrpc/)http://www.pipetree.com/jabber/jrpc/
[22:30] &lt;duck&gt; other services?
[22:30] &lt;jrand0m&gt; thats interesting - doing jabber as a naming service, essentially 
[22:31] &lt;duck&gt; you mean:
[22:31] &lt;jrand0m&gt; there will always be more services to add - with mail (usenet), chat (jabber) and publishing/browsing (eepsites), there's good coverage 
[22:31] &lt;duck&gt; name server has a jabber client through which you can register names (provided token)
[22:31] &lt;duck&gt; also use it to query?
[22:31] &lt;jrand0m&gt; naw 
[22:32] &lt;jrand0m&gt; jabber's registry being the naming service 
[22:32] &lt;duck&gt; ok
[22:32] &lt;jrand0m&gt; its centralized but it works 
[22:32] &lt;jrand0m&gt; just like hosts.txt :) 
[22:33] &lt;duck&gt; are there mail solutions that are better suited for there environments than smtp and pop/imap ?
[22:33] &lt;jrand0m&gt; thats a really good question 
[22:33] &lt;duck&gt; cause I dont think that it will just work when you hook up mail servers
[22:34] &lt;jrand0m&gt; yeah, it'd probably need either a gateway (ala freemail) or the naming service doing some interesting tap dancing 
[22:34] &lt;jrand0m&gt; or it reverts back to centralized single POP3/IMAP server with everyone on the same server 
[22:35] &lt;duck&gt; I spoke with aum (author of freemail) yesterday
[22:35] &lt;duck&gt; he was talking about reimplementing fred in python
[22:35] &lt;jrand0m&gt; lol nice 
[22:35] *** mrflibble (mrflibble@anon.iip) has joined channel #iip-dev
[22:35] &lt;duck&gt; so I did suggest him to work on the python routers for i2p instead
[22:35] &lt;jrand0m&gt; ooh that would TOTALLY rule! 
[22:35] &lt;duck&gt; then he got totally upset about the pdf documents
[22:36] &lt;jrand0m&gt; hey, if he wants the openOffice originals, or even a txt export I'll export 
[22:36] &lt;duck&gt; and I lost my patience and told him that you would also have the m$word docs if he did ask nicely
[22:36] &lt;duck&gt; well, you were a fuckhead for not doing a html export or something
[22:36] &lt;jrand0m&gt; naw, I tried that ;) 
[22:36] &lt;duck&gt; I lost my patience and told him to talk to you
[22:36] &lt;jrand0m&gt; the openOffice html export SUCKS 
[22:37] &lt;duck&gt; hm
[22:37] &lt;mrflibble&gt; true jr
[22:37] &lt;jrand0m&gt; when the specs turn 1.0 (aka when the router turns 1.0 and they're updated to match the code), they'll be on the wiki. 
[22:37] &lt;duck&gt; wiki has most info though
[22:37] &lt;jrand0m&gt; exactly 
[22:37] &lt;mrflibble&gt; i tried using that for that kevin mitnick book. it was worse than ms office
[22:37] &lt;duck&gt; oh well
[22:37] &lt;jrand0m&gt; zactly. 
[22:37] &lt;duck&gt; he might appear here once
[22:37] &lt;jrand0m&gt; that'd be awesome 
[22:38] &lt;duck&gt; but maybe it is better with his attitude to join the freenet gang
[22:38] &lt;duck&gt; ...
[22:38] &lt;jrand0m&gt; well, effort on freenet is always a good thing 
[22:38] * duck goes back to beeing friendly
[22:38] &lt;jrand0m&gt; :) 
[22:38] &lt;duck&gt; aums work rocks
[22:38] &lt;duck&gt; hopefully he'll rock on i2p
[22:39] &lt;jrand0m&gt; yeah whenever someone talked about searching on freenet, I always just said "well just do a McNabb" 
[22:39] &lt;jrand0m&gt; we need the help, certainly 
[22:39] &lt;duck&gt; which brings me to the following question:
[22:39] &lt;duck&gt; are the changes to I2P that you do specced?
[22:39] &lt;duck&gt; or is the java source the documentation for the latest info
[22:40] &lt;jrand0m&gt; there are notes taken in my palmpilot, filesystem, and notebook, but unfortunately I haven't updated the openoffice docs in a while 
[22:40] &lt;jrand0m&gt; feb is doc-month for jrandom. 
[22:40] &lt;jrand0m&gt; (and qa, and bugfixing) 
[22:41] &lt;jrand0m&gt; ((and benders ;)) 
[22:41] &lt;jrand0m&gt; the specs are still pretty much correct, there are just more details. 
[22:41] &lt;duck&gt; awesome
[22:41] &lt;jrand0m&gt; but the datastructures have had more changes 
[22:42] &lt;jrand0m&gt; ok, anything else for services?   
[22:43] &lt;jrand0m&gt; ok, 5) stuff 
[22:43] &lt;jrand0m&gt; hi 
[22:43] &lt;duck&gt; hi!
[22:43] &lt;jrand0m&gt; how's tricks? 
[22:43] &lt;jrand0m&gt; [any questions / thoughts / issues / etc go here] 
[22:43] &lt;duck&gt; the base64 tricks should be added to the i2ptricks pages
[22:44] &lt;jrand0m&gt; ooh good point 
[22:44] &lt;duck&gt; might be some other tricks too that I dont know yet
[22:44] &lt;duck&gt; will grep the sources for 'main'
[22:44] &lt;jrand0m&gt; I feel guilty for not having the installer let someoene automatically fetch hosts.txt and reseed 
[22:44] &lt;jrand0m&gt; lol 
[22:44] &lt;jrand0m&gt; there are lots and lots of main() methods, but they're mostly test functions 
[22:45] &lt;jrand0m&gt; oh! 
[22:45] &lt;jrand0m&gt; one thing.  DONT run the current code from cvs and expect it to work with normal routers. 
[22:45] *** joda (--@anon.iip) has joined channel #iip-dev
[22:45] &lt;joda&gt; hi
[22:45] &lt;jrand0m&gt; the db messages changed :) 
[22:45] &lt;jrand0m&gt; hi joda 
[22:45] &lt;joda&gt; sorry, if I interrupt something
[22:45] &lt;duck&gt; I got a bit upset that I couldnt get cvs to work
[22:45] &lt;duck&gt; but then I did remember that this isnt freenet
[22:45] &lt;joda&gt; I was just wondering what happend to "anonymail" ?
[22:46] &lt;duck&gt; so you dont need latest cvs to be able to use it
[22:46] &lt;jrand0m&gt; joda&gt; the user who runs it doesn't seem to be online at the moment.  should be back soon 
[22:46] &lt;jrand0m&gt; hehe duck - did it fail for you today after I committed, or do you mean from before today? 
[22:46] &lt;duck&gt; last week somewhere
[22:46] &lt;joda&gt; jrand&gt; thx :)
[22:46] &lt;joda&gt; cu :)
[22:46] &lt;jrand0m&gt; ah 'k duck 
[22:46] &lt;jrand0m&gt; l8r joda 
[22:47] &lt;jrand0m&gt; yeah, I only endorse running the released code 
[22:47] &lt;duck&gt; will 0.2.3 put the version files in a directory? :)
[22:47] &lt;jrand0m&gt; 0.2.3 gets rid of the version files :) 
[22:47] &lt;jrand0m&gt; (lots and lots and lots of changes) 
[22:47] &lt;jrand0m&gt; but that means 0.2.3 (and beyond) will require g enerally correct clocks 
[22:48] &lt;jrand0m&gt; (current Router.CLOCK_FUDGE_FACTOR = 30 minutes) 
[22:48] &lt;duck&gt; what will the fudge facter be for 0.2.3?
[22:48] &lt;jrand0m&gt; probably the same 
[22:49] *** joda has left #iip-dev
[22:49] &lt;duck&gt; oh, current = your code
[22:49] &lt;jrand0m&gt; that time will be used to expire db entries 
[22:49] &lt;duck&gt; k
[22:49] &lt;jrand0m&gt; ah, right, yeah :) 
[22:49] &lt;jrand0m&gt; (in 0.2.2 that clock_fudge_factor is spread out throughout half a dozen files) 
[22:49] &lt;duck&gt; maybe the installer could be a bit more userfriendly
[22:49] &lt;duck&gt; as in less questions
[22:49] *** Signoff: nickthief66282 (Excess Flood)
[22:50] &lt;duck&gt; default phttp urls included, no bandwidth limiting etc
[22:50] &lt;jrand0m&gt; I guess we could autoguess random ports too 
[22:50] &lt;jrand0m&gt; you're right 
[22:50] &lt;jrand0m&gt; want commit privs?  :) 
[22:50] *** Signoff: nerox (EOF From client)
[22:50] &lt;jrand0m&gt; (if not I can update it for 0.2.3) 
[22:51] &lt;duck&gt; an argument against it can be that users will take settings too easily for granted
[22:51] &lt;duck&gt; and everybody uses the same phttp relay
[22:51] *** nickthief24373 (~chatzilla@anon.iip) has joined channel #iip-dev
[22:51] &lt;jrand0m&gt; true.  though 0.3.1 plans include an update to the phttp relay code to let relays talk to each other, and redirect users to a less loaded relay 
[22:52] &lt;jrand0m&gt; i'm generally happy with the install process atm though - i built a new 0.2.2 install and was browsing tc's page in under a minute 
[22:52] &lt;jrand0m&gt; (though thats because i know what all the text says and didn't read it...) 
[22:52] &lt;duck&gt; I dont like the long keys
[22:53] &lt;duck&gt; especially not if you have to copy&amp;paste them
[22:53] &lt;duck&gt; better use them as file
[22:53] &lt;jrand0m&gt; hmm? 
[22:53] &lt;duck&gt; but distributing the binary files are a pain
[22:53] &lt;duck&gt; so you have to do the base64 trick..
[22:53] &lt;duck&gt; could the i2ptunnel read base64 destination keys too?
[22:53] &lt;duck&gt; from a file that is
[22:53] &lt;jrand0m&gt; I was just typing that ;) 
[22:53] &lt;jrand0m&gt; yeah, that wouldnt be much work 
[22:54] &lt;jrand0m&gt; perhaps even 1 line 
[22:54] &lt;duck&gt; also, what about armouring?
[22:54] &lt;duck&gt; with a header&amp;footer
[22:54] &lt;duck&gt; like pgp etc
[22:55] &lt;jrand0m&gt; true, it would be useful to have that sort of validation 
[22:55] &lt;duck&gt; ofcourse that is a gadget
[22:55] &lt;duck&gt; but it could be helpful for those who want to use the tunnel
[22:55] &lt;jrand0m&gt; though the Destination structure itself is pretty picky 
[22:55] &lt;jrand0m&gt; but you're right, a raw base64 isn't the most intuitive or safe thing to pass around 
[22:56] &lt;jrand0m&gt; we need a bugzilla 
[22:56] &lt;jrand0m&gt; so things like this can get posted as todo 
[22:56] &lt;jrand0m&gt; i'd move off my palm's todo list for that 
[22:56] &lt;duck&gt; bugzilla has nazi registration requirements
[22:56] &lt;duck&gt; with emails etc..
[22:56] &lt;jrand0m&gt; true 
[22:57] &lt;duck&gt; but better as nothing
[22:57] &lt;duck&gt; other bugtrackers all have their shortcomings
[22:57] &lt;jrand0m&gt; yeah, every company i've worked at has pretty much ended building their own 
[22:58] &lt;jrand0m&gt; we'll see.  we need a bugtracker by the time we start doing full on qa (once 0.3 comes out) 
[22:58] &lt;jrand0m&gt; so we've got a few weeks ;) 
[22:58] &lt;jrand0m&gt; but if someone did some research and found a really nice one, that'd be great 
[22:59] &lt;jrand0m&gt; [not you specifically duck, anyone who's reading these meeting logs at home ;)] 
[22:59] &lt;duck&gt; so far phpBugTrackers has been okay for me
[22:59] &lt;jrand0m&gt; hmm haven't used that 
[22:59] &lt;duck&gt; yes, I am not talking to jrandom either
[22:59] &lt;jrand0m&gt; lol 
[22:59] &lt;duck&gt; but to the group of I2P code developers :)
[22:59] * jrand0m is actually 12 people acting under a single nym
[23:00] &lt;jrand0m&gt; ok, 1 hour, on the dot 
[23:00] &lt;jrand0m&gt; anyone else have anything before I get the *baf*er out? 
[23:01] * duck demands 1 more minute
[23:01] &lt;duck&gt; since we did start on 21:02
[23:01] &lt;jrand0m&gt; yeah yeah 
[23:01] &lt;jrand0m&gt; la la la 
[23:01] &lt;jrand0m&gt; what should i have for dinner? 
[23:01] &lt;jrand0m&gt; there's a nice falafel place next door... 
[23:01] &lt;jrand0m&gt; had gnocci for lunch too 
[23:01] &lt;jrand0m&gt; hmm... 
[23:01] &lt;jrand0m&gt; maybe a liquid dinner 
[23:02] &lt;duck&gt; soup?
[23:02] &lt;jrand0m&gt; ooOooo whiskey soup! 
[23:02] * jrand0m *baf*'s the meeting closed on that note

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