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{% extends "_layout.html" %}
{% block title %}I2P Development Meeting 32{% endblock %}
{% block content %}
<h3>I2P (invisiblenet) Development Meeting 32</h3>
<div class="irclog">
Courtesy of <a href="http://www.archive.org/">the wayback machine</a>.
<p>
<p>--- Log opened Tue Mar 04 23:47:24 2003
<p>23:47 -!- Topic for #iip-dev: IIP Meeting - logfiles: http://mids.student.utwente.nl/~mids/iip/
<p>23:47 [Users #iip-dev]
<p>23:47 [ eep] [ jeremiah] [ logger] [ mids] [ nop] [ UserX_]
<p>23:47 -!- Irssi: #iip-dev: Total of 6 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 6 normal]
<p>23:47 -!- Irssi: Join to #iip-dev was synced in 2 secs
<p>23:48 &lt; LeerokLacerta&gt; Making history.
<p>23:48 &lt; mrflibble&gt; helooo
<p>23:48 &lt; LeerokLacerta&gt; Hello.
<p>23:52 &lt; nop&gt; hi
<p>23:52 &lt; jeremiah&gt; hi
<p>23:53 &lt; nop&gt; hi
<p>23:53 -!- mode/#iip-dev [+o mids] by Trent
<p>23:53 &lt; LeerokLacerta&gt; Konnichiwa.
<p>23:54 &lt; bpb&gt; konnichiwa
<p>23:58 &lt; nop&gt; hi
<p>23:58 &lt;@mids&gt; Hi hezekiah!
<p>23:58 &lt; hezekiah&gt; Hi. :)
<p>23:58 &lt;@mids&gt; *hedgehog sound*
<p>23:58 &lt; hezekiah&gt; lol
<p>23:58 &lt; hezekiah&gt; *orgle*
<p>23:58 &lt; LeerokLacerta&gt; Hedgehog?
<p>23:58 &lt; hezekiah&gt; (orgle: That's one of the sounds a llama makes.)
<p>23:58 &lt;@mids&gt; LeerokLacerta: relatively large rodents with sharp erectile bristles mingled with the fur
<p>23:59 &lt; hezekiah&gt; Mids got turned into a hedgehog by the entropy bug.
<p>23:59 &lt; hezekiah&gt; I got turned into a llama.
<p>23:59 &lt;@mids&gt; no
<p>23:59 &lt; LeerokLacerta&gt; I know what it is, but why're you making hedgehog noises?
<p>23:59 &lt;@mids&gt; because I reported the logging bug that didnt exist
<p>23:59 &lt; hezekiah&gt; Ah.
<p>23:59 &lt; hezekiah&gt; Well, you had mentioned you were going to turn into a hedgehog when refering to the previous entropy bug.
<p>--- Day changed Wed Mar 05 2003
<p>00:00 &lt;@mids&gt; that was back then
<p>00:00 &lt;@mids&gt; Tue Mar 4 23:00:03 UTC 2003
<p>00:00 &lt;@mids&gt; meeting NOW in here
<p>00:00 &lt;@mids&gt; Welcome everybody
<p>00:00 &lt;@mids&gt; this is the 32th IIP meeting
<p>00:00 * LeerokLacerta feels welcomed.
<p>00:00 &lt;@mids&gt; previous one was canceled, because nobody was there
<p>00:00 &lt;@mids&gt; logs are available on http://mids.student.utwente.nl/~mids/iip/
<p>00:01 &lt;@mids&gt; We got a little agenda:
<p>00:01 &lt;@mids&gt; 1) Welcome
<p>00:01 &lt;@mids&gt; 2) IIP 1.1.0 Release status update
<p>00:01 &lt;@mids&gt; 3) Trent accesslevel for 'voice'
<p>00:01 &lt;@mids&gt; 4) Question round
<p>00:01 &lt;@mids&gt; if you have any questions on the current topic, please ask
<p>00:01 &lt;@mids&gt; otherwise save them for the question round.
<p>00:01 &lt;@mids&gt; .
<p>00:02 * mids moves the agenda pointer to #2 "IIP 1.1.0 Release status update"
<p>00:02 &lt;@mids&gt; well hezekiah, what happened? :)
<p>00:02 &lt; hezekiah&gt; Oh. OK. :)
<p>00:02 &lt; hezekiah&gt; Well, the first entropy bug got fixed.
<p>00:02 &lt; hezekiah&gt; After much banging of heads and exchanging of emails ...
<p>00:03 &lt; hezekiah&gt; ... UserX, nop, and myself managed to work out a fix for it.
<p>00:03 &lt; hezekiah&gt; Now, mids is noticing a NEW problem with the entropy gathering (namely seed.rnd isn't getting saved.)
<p>00:03 &lt; hezekiah&gt; Anyway, I've hunted in the code and posted my discoveries to the iip-dev mailing list.
<p>00:04 &lt;@mids&gt; this thing is another release delayer
<p>00:04 &lt;@mids&gt; hopefully the last one
<p>00:04 &lt; hezekiah&gt; I am now waiting on UserX or nop to tell me what all this means and if I'm missing something (because I think I am. None of it makes any sense.)
<p>00:04 &lt; hezekiah&gt; Hopefully. *orgle*
<p>00:04 &lt;@mids&gt; .
<p>00:04 &lt; hezekiah&gt; .
<p>00:04 &lt;@mids&gt; Any IIP 1.1.0 specific questions?
<p>00:05 &lt; LeerokLacerta&gt; No socks?
<p>00:05 &lt;@mids&gt; no socks
<p>00:05 &lt; hezekiah&gt; No SOCKS.
<p>00:05 &lt; LeerokLacerta&gt; K.
<p>00:05 &lt;@mids&gt; ok
<p>00:05 &lt;@mids&gt; lets move on to #3 "Trent accesslevel for 'voice'"
<p>00:06 &lt;@mids&gt; this is related with the hidden agenda point #2.9 "The #freenet-opn channel"
<p>00:06 &lt;@mids&gt; the official Freenet project channel is on irc.freenode.net
<p>00:06 &lt;@mids&gt; but that is not anonymous
<p>00:06 &lt;@mids&gt; we have a mirror with that channel here
<p>00:06 &lt;@mids&gt; in #freenet-opn
<p>00:07 &lt;@mids&gt; the bot 'eyeKon' tells you everything that happens on the other side
<p>00:07 &lt;@mids&gt; normally this is a one way mirror, but you can say something back with the "!say :text" command
<p>00:07 &lt;@mids&gt; to use this you got to have operator or voice status
<p>00:07 &lt;@mids&gt; if you want to say something, ask an operator to give you voice
<p>00:07 &lt;@mids&gt; ,
<p>00:08 &lt; dm&gt; How about if you are identified by Trent you get voice automatically and your name gets prefixed to your messages. If people on the other side have a problem they can send a command to the bot to "ban" a certain anonyname. In which case EyeKon on this side removes voice permanently from that name.
<p>00:08 &lt; LeerokLacerta&gt; Permanently?
<p>00:08 &lt; LeerokLacerta&gt; How 'bout timed ban?
<p>00:08 &lt;@mids&gt; it will get pretty complicated
<p>00:09 &lt;@mids&gt; they have to know how to bot works
<p>00:09 &lt;@mids&gt; while it is intended more as a one-way transparant thing
<p>00:09 -!- hezekiah is now known as nickthief88099
<p>00:09 &lt;@mids&gt; I have contacted the channelowners of #freenet
<p>00:09 &lt;@mids&gt; and they didnt have a problem with it
<p>00:09 &lt; dm&gt; sure, until mids or someone restores it. Must make sure not to spam/bother people on the other side.
<p>00:09 &lt;@mids&gt; that is why not everybody will get voice
<p>00:09 &lt;@mids&gt; it is VERY easy to create lot of accounts here
<p>00:10 &lt;@mids&gt; so it will be impossible to ban them all
<p>00:10 &lt; dm&gt; ok, so selective voice, through trent?
<p>00:10 &lt;@mids&gt; what I DO want to do is selective voice through Trent
<p>00:10 &lt; jake&gt; this sure is an interesting conversation but I need to eat buh bye
<p>00:10 &lt;@mids&gt; which is agenda item #3
<p>00:10 &lt;@mids&gt; bye jake, thanks for joining
<p>00:10 &lt;@mids&gt; be sure to read the logfile afterwards
<p>00:10 &lt; jake&gt; thank you
<p>00:10 &lt; jake&gt; k
<p>00:10 &lt;@mids&gt; Right now the channel access system has 3 levels:
<p>00:11 &lt;@mids&gt; level 1: operator
<p>00:11 * mids checks the site how he called it
<p>00:12 &lt;@mids&gt; Level 1: Normal operator, can give him/herself ops
<p>00:12 &lt;@mids&gt; Level 2: Super operator, can add other users to the channel (with lower level)
<p>00:12 &lt;@mids&gt; Level 3: Founder, most powerfull, required to drop a channel for example
<p>00:12 &lt;@mids&gt; I want to add a voice level
<p>00:12 &lt;@mids&gt; so people can get voice on the channel if they are on the access list
<p>00:12 &lt;@mids&gt; but the problem is... what number should the voice level be?
<p>00:12 &lt; hezekiah&gt; lol
<p>00:13 &lt; hezekiah&gt; Tell me you didn't use magic numbers, mids.
<p>00:13 &lt; hezekiah&gt; Please.
<p>00:13 &lt;@mids&gt; I am thinking about changing level 1 into 10
<p>00:13 &lt;@mids&gt; and 2 into 20
<p>00:13 &lt;@mids&gt; and 3 into 30
<p>00:13 &lt;@mids&gt; and adding level 5 as voice
<p>00:13 &lt; hezekiah&gt; Sounds good. It leaves room for further improvements.
<p>00:13 &lt;@mids&gt; exactly
<p>00:14 &lt;@mids&gt; note that I dont plan to make Trent a big & bloaty service
<p>00:14 &lt;@mids&gt; comments? objections?
<p>00:14 &lt;@mids&gt; .
<p>00:14 &lt; hezekiah&gt; Umm .. so what's the problem?
<p>00:15 &lt;@mids&gt; there is no problem
<p>00:15 &lt; dm&gt; voice = voice on all channels?
<p>00:15 &lt; hezekiah&gt; OK.
<p>00:15 &lt; hezekiah&gt; It sorta looked like that. :)
<p>00:15 &lt;@mids&gt; dm: no, it is channel specific
<p>00:15 &lt;@mids&gt; hezekiah: I am always dramatic
<p>00:15 &lt; dm&gt; ok
<p>00:15 &lt;@mids&gt; dm: try this:
<p>00:15 &lt;@mids&gt; /squery trent chanlist #iip-dev
<p>00:15 &lt;@mids&gt; you'll get a list of the users on the access list
<p>00:15 &lt;@mids&gt; with the level
<p>00:15 &lt; dm&gt; ah, nice
<p>00:16 &lt;@mids&gt; ok
<p>00:17 &lt;@mids&gt; then it is now time for the last item #4: "Question Round"
<p>00:17 &lt; dm&gt; is there a roadmap documented anywhere, for IIP?
<p>00:18 &lt;@mids&gt; only internally I think
<p>00:18 &lt;@mids&gt; I dont have it...
<p>00:18 &lt;@mids&gt; hezekiah?
<p>00:18 &lt; hezekiah&gt; And why does "/squery Trent :chanlist #anonymous" return a blank list.
<p>00:18 &lt; hezekiah&gt; Oh.
<p>00:18 &lt; hezekiah&gt; Well we have a small todo list of stuff we need to do in the development tree.
<p>00:18 &lt;@mids&gt; hezekiah: too late (because nobody is on the access list for #anonymous, it is oper-less)
<p>00:18 &lt; hezekiah&gt; I'm not aware of any roadmap though.
<p>00:19 &lt;@mids&gt; maybe it would be good to make one
<p>00:19 &lt; dm&gt; ok, you're not even thinking about decentralizing any time soon, correct?
<p>00:19 &lt; hezekiah&gt; Well, that would be nop's department.
<p>00:19 &lt; hezekiah&gt; (Actually, I've already asked for something like that.)
<p>00:20 &lt; hezekiah&gt; (He said we were going to sit down and map out [or whatever he said] IIP 1.2 after 1.1 is released.)
<p>00:20 &lt; hezekiah&gt; .
<p>00:21 &lt;@mids&gt; well
<p>00:21 &lt; dm&gt; 1.1 is there a changelog somewhere?
<p>00:21 &lt;@mids&gt; nop is very busy
<p>00:21 &lt;@mids&gt; maybe someone else should do it
<p>00:21 &lt;@mids&gt; dm: yes, hang on
<p>00:21 &lt; hezekiah&gt; mids: No one else has the authority to do it.
<p>00:21 &lt;@mids&gt; http://cvs.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/*checkout*/invisibleip/iip/CHANGELOG
<p>00:21 &lt; hezekiah&gt; We are talking about setting the future course of development for IIP.
<p>00:21 &lt; dm&gt; thanks, bookmarked
<p>00:22 &lt;@mids&gt; hezekiah: understood
<p>00:25 * mids just heared that they got plenty of things to do for 1.2
<p>00:25 &lt; hezekiah&gt; As for nop not having time, ...
<p>00:25 &lt; hezekiah&gt; We still have plenty of known coding to do on 1.2.
<p>00:26 &lt; hezekiah&gt; 1.2 will not die for lack of vision. And even if we finish the stuff currently on the list, a short discussion will come up with more.
<p>00:26 &lt; hezekiah&gt; Eventually nop will have time to sit down with us and describe a plan for development of 1.2.
<p>00:26 &lt; dm&gt; any general notes on what 1.2 is striving for?
<p>00:26 &lt; hezekiah&gt; The big one: decentralize the ircd server!
<p>00:26 &lt; dm&gt; ah, ok, you don't know.
<p>00:27 &lt; dm&gt; ah, that's in 1.2? sweet.
<p>00:27 &lt;@mids&gt; is it already?
<p>00:27 &lt;@mids&gt; omg
<p>00:27 &lt; hezekiah&gt; Is the decentralization ready? No!
<p>00:27 &lt; dm&gt; planned for I mean :p
<p>00:27 * mids objects!
<p>00:27 &lt;@mids&gt; when do you want to release 1.2?
<p>00:27 &lt;@mids&gt; 2010?
<p>00:27 * LeerokLacerta is an object.
<p>00:27 &lt; hezekiah&gt; lol
<p>00:28 &lt; hezekiah&gt; Let's just say sometime after 1.1 is released. :)
<p>00:28 &lt; hezekiah&gt; Right now 1.1 is the priority.
<p>00:28 &lt; hezekiah&gt; (At least that's the feeling I've gotten.)
<p>00:28 &lt; dm&gt; so you is it going to be distributed ircd servers or completely decentralized?
<p>00:28 &lt; hezekiah&gt; dm: I don't know the details.
<p>00:28 &lt; dm&gt; ok
<p>00:28 &lt; hezekiah&gt; I'm not really very good at P2P stuff. :)
<p>00:28 &lt; hezekiah&gt; I just code
<p>00:28 &lt;@mids&gt; let me paste an email from 2002-03-19
<p>00:28 &lt;@mids&gt; From: 0x90 (0x90@invisiblenet.net)
<p>00:28 &lt;@mids&gt; Date: Tue Mar 19 2002 - 00:22:26 CET
<p>00:28 &lt;@mids&gt; Subject: [iip-dev] 1.1.0 almost complete
<p>00:28 &lt;@mids&gt; Ok, we're nearing the completion of 1.1.0. As soon as the TODO/Fixes and cui
<p>00:28 &lt;@mids&gt; for linux are complete, we should run a beta test of the network for this
<p>00:28 &lt;@mids&gt; week, this is done by the developers/testers. Stay posted.
<p>00:29 &lt;@mids&gt; --0x90--
<p>00:29 &lt;@mids&gt; .
<p>00:29 &lt; hezekiah&gt; Ouch.
<p>00:29 &lt; hezekiah&gt; That hurt, mids. ;-)
<p>00:29 &lt;@mids&gt; yes it did
<p>00:29 &lt; hezekiah&gt; What date was the last release of IIP made?
<p>00:30 &lt;@mids&gt; RC3 was 2002-12-04
<p>00:30 &lt;@mids&gt; but ofcourse the whole 'RC' stuff was wrong
<p>00:31 &lt;@mids&gt; ofcourse it is just a name
<p>00:31 &lt;@mids&gt; RC2 could have been 1.1.0
<p>00:31 &lt;@mids&gt; then RC3 1.1.1
<p>00:31 &lt;@mids&gt; and what we will have now 1.1.2
<p>00:32 &lt; nop&gt; well
<p>00:32 &lt; nop&gt; in the crypto community
<p>00:32 &lt; nop&gt; we should continue with RC4, 5 and 6, and see if they crack it
<p>00:32 &lt; nop&gt; ;)
<p>00:32 &lt; nop&gt; bad joke
<p>00:33 &lt; Nostradumbass&gt; Excuse me for butting in...
<p>00:33 &lt; jake&gt; butts!
<p>00:33 &lt; Nostradumbass&gt; but it seems that iip developers have forgotten the prime mazimum of open source, "Release early, release often".
<p>00:34 &lt; LeerokLacerta&gt; IIP is open source?
<p>00:34 &lt; nop&gt; sure
<p>00:34 &lt; nop&gt; right
<p>00:34 &lt; nop&gt; but
<p>00:34 &lt; hezekiah&gt; LeerokLacerta: yes
<p>00:34 &lt; LeerokLacerta&gt; I'm dumb.
<p>00:34 &lt; nop&gt; we also value security
<p>00:34 &lt; Nostradumbass&gt; i haven't been around on iip too long but i can't recall ever hearing about it being /.'d
<p>00:35 &lt; nop&gt; and we like to bend the rules
<p>00:35 &lt; nop&gt; it's been slashdotted
<p>00:35 &lt; Nostradumbass&gt; apologies
<p>00:35 &lt;@mids&gt; RC2 was /.-ed
<p>00:35 &lt; Nostradumbass&gt; k
<p>00:35 &lt;@mids&gt; and it gave us... hezekiah !
<p>00:35 &lt; nop&gt; yes
<p>00:35 &lt; nop&gt; ;)
<p>00:35 &lt; Nostradumbass&gt; still that's quite a while back.
<p>00:35 &lt; hezekiah&gt; mids: actually no.
<p>00:36 &lt; hezekiah&gt; mids: I was watching this project for more than a year before the /.ing.
<p>00:36 &lt; jake&gt; um guys? about the web based IIP are there any plans for improvement? like a nicer interface?
<p>00:36 &lt; nop&gt; that's a distributedcity question
<p>00:36 &lt; nop&gt; they make the interface
<p>00:36 &lt; jake&gt; oooo k
<p>00:37 &lt; nop&gt; it was something that they did, not really direct involvement with us
<p>00:37 &lt;@mids&gt; doing releases gives publication
<p>00:37 &lt;@mids&gt; you can do announcements, press releases
<p>00:37 &lt;@mids&gt; we have multiple places that really like to hear about updates
<p>00:38 &lt;@mids&gt; it increases the interest and amount of users in the project
<p>00:38 &lt;@mids&gt; and also potential contributors / developers
<p>00:38 &lt;@mids&gt; IF you have some super-duper mixnet
<p>00:38 &lt;@mids&gt; you do need lots of users
<p>00:38 &lt;@mids&gt; because with 2 users it isnt anonymous
<p>00:39 &lt;@mids&gt; there have been more stable periods in the development code
<p>00:39 &lt;@mids&gt; at which point we could have made a release
<p>00:39 &lt;@mids&gt; IMHO
<p>00:39 &lt;@mids&gt; problem is maybe the dependencies...
<p>00:40 &lt;@mids&gt; PGP signing the release, compiling for windows, etc
<p>00:40 &lt;@mids&gt; anyway, I have said it before ;)
<p>00:42 &lt; hezekiah&gt; Well, between my being sporadically bumped from the network, I've tried to say something that didn't get said. ;-)
<p>00:42 &lt; hezekiah&gt; &lt;hezekiah&gt; nop: mids has raised some good points.
<p>00:42 &lt; hezekiah&gt; &lt;hezekiah&gt; nop: After we get 1.1 out the door (which should be _really_ soon), are we going to come up with a nice coherent plan for 1.2 so that we can get it out in a reasonable amount of time?
<p>00:42 &lt; hezekiah&gt; &lt;hezekiah&gt; I think with good planning, and goals to get certain parts done by certain times, we could still write great code, but get it done in a reasonable timeframe. :)
<p>00:42 &lt; hezekiah&gt; There! :)
<p>00:42 &lt;@mids&gt; thanks
<p>00:43 &lt; Nostradumbass&gt; in addition to the proposed feature list, perhaps a list of prohibited features (to limit feature creep) might be a good idea.
<p>00:43 &lt; dm&gt; 1.2! 1.2! 1.2! 1.2!
<p>00:44 &lt;@mids&gt; good suggestion Nostradumbass
<p>00:44 &lt; hezekiah&gt; Well, I wasn't really refering to a feature list. I was refering to what we are going to code, in what order, and by what suggested time.
<p>00:45 &lt; hezekiah&gt; nop? What do you think?
<p>00:46 &lt; nop&gt; good idea
<p>00:46 &lt; nop&gt; organization is always good
<p>00:46 &lt; nop&gt; but not always perfect
<p>00:46 &lt; hezekiah&gt; Perhaps after we release 1.1, all the developers could sit down and we could make up a list of stuff we plan on doing in the next 1-2 months, then a list of stuff planned for the next 5 months, then with a full list of what will make IIP 1.2 to be version 1.2. :)
<p>00:46 &lt; hezekiah&gt; I know. It will be _very_ flexable.
<p>00:47 &lt; hezekiah&gt; (For starters I wouldn't say feature A is one at date 1 and feature B is done at date 2. I'd say feature A is hopefully done in X weeks, and feature B is hopefully done Y weeks after feature A.)
<p>00:47 &lt; hezekiah&gt; I think that something as a general guide to what we're doing is a good idea.
<p>00:48 &lt; hezekiah&gt; Not a stiff-as-iron list. :)
<p>00:48 &lt;@mids&gt; yeah, get it
<p>00:48 &lt; hezekiah&gt; OK ...
<p>00:48 &lt; hezekiah&gt; Anything to add mids?
<p>00:49 &lt;@mids&gt; nope
<p>00:49 &lt; hezekiah&gt; OK. ;)
<p>00:49 &lt; hezekiah&gt; So for now ...
<p>00:49 &lt; hezekiah&gt; I am waiting for nop or UserX to enlighten me concerning the stuff I dug up on mids' new entropy bug.
<p>00:49 &lt;@mids&gt; I hope that I wont find other issues
<p>00:49 &lt; hezekiah&gt; (It just doesn't seem like randomWriteSeed() is never called.)
<p>00:49 &lt; hezekiah&gt; Let's hope. :)
<p>00:50 &lt; nop&gt; double negative
<p>00:50 &lt; nop&gt; hmm
<p>00:50 &lt; nop&gt; ;)
<p>00:50 &lt;@mids&gt; .
<p>00:50 &lt;@mids&gt; I am done :)
<p>00:50 &lt; hezekiah&gt; You're right! :)
<p>00:50 &lt; hezekiah&gt; It seems like randomWriteSeed() should be called.
<p>00:50 &lt; hezekiah&gt; But it doesn't look like it is.
<p>00:51 &lt;@mids&gt; not in randomSlowPoolReseed?
<p>00:52 &lt; hezekiah&gt; Well, lets hope we have this bug fixed by next week.
<p>00:52 &lt;@mids&gt; you better do that!
<p>00:52 * mids tries to put up an angry face
<p>00:53 &lt;@mids&gt; ok, been a pleasure again. till next meeting, mailinglist, chat or otherwise!
<p>00:53 &lt;@mids&gt; *boink*
<p>00:53 &lt; hezekiah&gt; randomSlowPoolReseed() calls randomWriteSeed(), but (as I said in my email to iip-dev), randomSlowPoolReseed() is never called by anyone!
<p>00:53 &lt; hezekiah&gt; lol
<p>-- Log closed Wed Mar 05 23:42:43 2003
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