--- Log opened Wed Mar 12 00:01:53 2003
00:01 -!- Topic for #iip-dev: IIP Meeting - logfiles: http://mids.student.utwente.nl/~mids/iip/
00:01 [Users #iip-dev]
00:01 [@mids ] [ jeremiah] [ mihi] [ pox ]
00:01 [ hezekiah] [ logger ] [ nop ] [ UserX]
00:01 -!- Irssi: #iip-dev: Total of 8 nicks [1 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 7 normal]
00:02 -!- Irssi: Join to #iip-dev was synced in 7 secs
00:02 <@mids> Welcome to the 33th meeting
00:02 < hezekiah> Hi
00:03 <@mids> IIP 1.1.0 is released yesterday
00:03 < toni> is it okay, to simply idle here and eve's drop?
00:03 <@mids> toni: yes
00:03 <@mids> Agenda for this meeting:
00:03 <@mids> 1) IIP 1.1.0
00:03 <@mids> 2) Future of IIP
00:03 <@mids> 3) Questions
00:04 <@mids> if you have questions about the current subject, please ask
00:04 <@mids> otherwise save it for round 3
00:04 <@mids> .
00:04 < nop> hi
00:04 <@mids> logs are available on http://mids.student.utwente.nl/~mids/iip/
00:04 < hezekiah> hi! :)
00:04 < luckypunk> Hi.
00:04 <@mids> .
00:04 < jrand0m> ev'nin
00:05 <@mids> 1) IIP 1.1.0 (stable) Released!!!
00:05 < hezekiah> YAY!
00:05 <@mids> Finally
00:05 < luckypunk> :)
00:05 <@mids> almost a year after nop's post that it would be out soon :)
00:05 < FillaMent> w3rd i$ b0nd
00:05 <@mids> In this version the installation for Unix is enhanced, entropy generation is improved and a few bugs are fixed.
00:05 <@mids> We call it a stable release
00:05 < hezekiah> mids: Is that list of changes as compared to 1.1.0 RC3 or compared to 1.0.0?
00:05 <@mids> and it looks stable so far
00:06 <@mids> hezekiah: http://cvs.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/*checkout*/invisibleip/iip/CHANGELOG
00:06 <@mids> thats all I know
00:06 < hezekiah> OK. :)
00:06 < hezekiah> (It sorta sounds like it is a comparison to 1.1.0 RC3 or RC2.)
00:07 <@mids> hezekiah: it does, because nobody wrote what was updated before
00:07 < dm> Should I download the Service Pack 2 for IIP if I'm using a cracked version of IIP?
00:07 < hezekiah> mids: Ah ... Therein lies the tale! ;-)
00:07 < dm> sorry, carry on.
00:07 < hezekiah> dm: I'm not aware of any service packs.
00:07 <@mids> the release is announced on our website, freshmeat, infoanarchy and frost
00:08 <@mids> I did email a few other sites that had it listed
00:08 <@mids> if you guys/girls know other places to tell...
00:08 <@mids> please do so
00:08 < jrand0m> nsa?
00:08 < toni> i know, but im a total stranger to iip *g*
00:08 < FillaMent> kuro5hin?
00:08 < hezekiah> mids: Did you email that program archive that hosts it that was recently mentioned on iip-dev?
00:08 < toni> heise.de german security/internet related site
00:08 < FillaMent> jinx.biz
00:09 <@mids> hezekiah: I did mail vipul's munitions
00:09 < hezekiah> mids: OK! :)
00:09 <@mids> kuro5hin requires a decent article
00:09 <@mids> and they are very picky
00:09 <@mids> but if you want to write something...
00:09 <@mids> please do so
00:09 < hezekiah> slashdot again?
00:09 <@mids> toni: could you inform them?
00:09 < hezekiah> They don't require anything super decent, and they mentioned us before. ;-)
00:10 < toni> they also require articles, and i dont know how picky they are
00:10 < toni> if somebody writes an article, i could translate it to german and email them
00:10 <@mids> you could use the press release on http://www.infoanarchy.org/story/2003/3/10/23466/2065
00:11 <@mids> and link the CHANGELOG to http://cvs.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/*checkout*/invisibleip/iip/CHANGELOG
00:11 <@mids> be sure to include a general description of IIP
00:11 <@mids> I think we should try to do /.
00:12 <@mids> we survived it before
00:12 < hezekiah> mids: Note: You mention to view the changelog in the infoanarchy article, but you don't appear to provide people with a link to it!
00:12 < toni> since im not really familiar with iip, i guess i can't give a decent description, but if you /. it, i could give heise a hint, they often take news from there and translate them
00:12 <@mids> hezekiah: yes, I forgot.
00:12 <@mids> I'll mail their editor
00:15 < hezekiah> OK ... anything else on agenda item 1 (IIP 1.1 release) ?
00:17 <@mids> did you all already submit a newsstory to /.?
00:17 < hezekiah> No.
00:18 < hezekiah> I haven't been with the project quite long enough to have a firm grasp of what has happened since 1.0.
00:18 < hezekiah> Who wrote the last /. post?
00:18 <@mids> we dont know
00:18 < hezekiah> LOL!
00:18 < jrand0m> hahah
00:18 < dm> I think it might have been no_nick
00:18 < mihi> is iip too anonymous? ;-)
00:19 <@mids> yes :)
00:19 < hezekiah> Well, I'll go hunt up the previous post, and see if I can come up with something. :)
00:19 <@mids> ok...
00:19 <@mids> previous one was a copy of the kuro5hin article
00:19 <@mids> which was about nop's interview
00:19 <@mids> ok
00:19 <@mids> Item 2??
00:19 < hezekiah> Yay! :)
00:20 <@mids> 2) Future of IIP
00:20 <@mids> we want:
00:20 <@mids> DECENTRALIZATION
00:20 <@mids> but who is going to do it
00:20 <@mids> and how
00:21 < dm> and is it possible.
00:21 < jrand0m> and what will be lost.
00:21 < hezekiah> If I may interupt: I just want to make sure nop and UserX and present and accounted for. This conversation will be pretty futile without them. :)
00:21 < jrand0m> (aka centralized authentication - trent)
00:21 < hezekiah> nop?
00:21 < hezekiah> UserX?
00:21 <@mids> hezekiah?
00:21 < hezekiah> Are you present?
00:21 < hezekiah> mids: Here!
00:21 < nop> I'm somewhat present
00:22 < hezekiah> OK. :)
00:22 < nop> userx and I have had discussions
00:22 < nop> on how we would like to do it
00:23 < hezekiah> Did those get discussions written up in papers and stuck in the research directory of the IIP website?
00:23 < nop> ues
00:23 < nop> most are there
00:23 < nop> userx has more
00:23 < nop> that I would like pu t there
00:23 < nop> http://www.invisiblenet.net/research/IIP-WP-Notes.txt
00:23 < hezekiah> OK. Could you please give the filenames of the most relavent ones so I can give them a look? :)
00:23 < nop> that one contains quite a bit
00:24 < nop> there is also some other's contributed
00:24 < nop> IIP_netproto.html
00:24 < nop> and architecture.pdf
00:24 < hezekiah> OK. :)
00:24 < nop>
00:25 < nop> http://www.invisiblenet.net/research/IIP-Identity.txt
00:25 < nop> as well
00:25 < nop> http://www.invisiblenet.net/research/IIP-Messages.txt
00:27 < hezekiah> OK. Are any of them completely (or primarily) devoted to just the decentralization aspect?
00:27 < nop> yes
00:27 < nop> all of them
00:27 < hezekiah> OK. :)
00:27 < hezekiah> Thanks for all the links! I'm checking them out now. :)
00:31 <@mids> ok
00:31 <@mids> other IIP Future events?
00:31 < dm> is FillaMent here?
00:31 < hezekiah> Well, in the near future, IIP-dev still doesn't have the "entropy problem" fixed.
00:31 < dm> he had the idea of making trent allow PGP key exchanges
00:31 < dm> which makes sense.
00:31 * FillaMent is present
00:32 <@mids> yes FillaMent and me did talk about that
00:32 * mids hands the microphone to FillaMent
00:32 * FillaMent taps it a couple times, "this thing on?" (sorry)
00:33 * hezekiah turns up the volume
00:33 < lonelynerd> :)
00:33 < FillaMent> Here's the deal: I think it'd be handy to have a PGP key storage and exchange mechanism on IIP. I have a few proposals as to how such a thing should work.
00:34 < dm> Should be fairly easy? Just add a field for PGP to trent, and add GET/STORE commands?
00:34 < FillaMent> 1) Capability is built into trent. This presents a problem with most IRC clients sending strings that long
00:35 < dm> ah, ok.
00:35 < FillaMent> 2) Make trent able to pull a CHK from freenet and store the contents of that file as the Key
00:35 < FillaMent> 3) Build a separate bot to preform 1 or 2
00:35 < nop> hmm
00:35 <@mids> good points
00:35 < nop> the only issue
00:35 < nop> I have
00:35 < nop> with this concept
00:35 < nop> is how do we trust trent or any bot for that matter to handle pub keys
00:35 < nop> without verification
00:36 <@mids> well
00:36 < FillaMent> Well, it could check and make sure the nick was reg'd and ident'd
00:36 <@mids> it could be just as a keyserver
00:36 < nop> the idea I'm thinking
00:36 < nop> is it can do a verify to all major key servers
00:36 < nop> as well
00:36 < nop> so that it gets congruent info
00:36 < FillaMent> nop: read my flog entry about psuedoidentity?
00:36 < nop> link
00:37 < FillaMent> SSK@WxBcPJd1ppZSZ~C8IJI-DHx94oIPAgM/fillament//
00:37 <@mids> keyservers dont verify anything
00:37 <@mids> they just store stuff
00:37 <@mids> what you can do now with Trent
00:37 < FillaMent> here's the short of it... what if your identity only exists in anonymous space? What can you verify?
00:37 <@mids> /squery trent nickinfo mids
00:38 <@mids> see the comment line
00:38 <@mids> it can contain anything
00:38 <@mids> also urls etc
00:38 < FillaMent> but short
00:38 <@mids> so you could link to your PGP key
00:39 < FillaMent> I'm just thinking of something to remove all the middle steps.
00:39 < hezekiah> Looking at mids' ID comment, I see it lists a key fingerprint
00:39 < hezekiah> It also lists the key ID. Why can't someone just get the key from a keyserver, and check the fingerprint.
00:39 < FillaMent> hezekiah: What key server?
00:39 < FillaMent> one on the internet?
00:39 < nop> that's what I'm saying
00:40 < mihi> how get a key up to a key server? anonymously?
00:40 < lonelynerd> we just need a bot to fetch those
00:40 < FillaMent> if your identity only exists in anonymous space, like mine... I don't want to leave a trail on the internet
00:40 < hezekiah> Ah ...
00:40 < hezekiah> OK. I get it. :)
00:40 <@mids> so a keyserver bot for IIP would be it
00:40 <@mids> combined with freenet
00:40 < FillaMent> that'd be sweet... just feed trent the fingerprint and it'll try to fetch the key...
00:41 <@mids> currently freenet is too heavy to run on the Trent server
00:41 < lonelynerd> mids, well, you could ascii armor the public keys
00:41 < FillaMent> mids: Such a thing need not be built into trent, as my point 3
00:41 < nop> well
00:41 < nop> you could use a gateway mids
00:41 < nop> like groovy
00:41 <@mids> too unreliable
00:42 < someone> why do you need freenet, again?
00:42 < FillaMent> mids: If you wanted to make trent capable, just have it access one of the public freenet servers
00:42 <@mids> why not let a user upload the key to freenet and give the url to the bot?
00:42 <@mids> someone: for file storage
00:42 < FillaMent> mids: Because it a few days it's gone if no one accesses it.
00:42 < lonelynerd> mids, wouldn't it be more efficient to have a one huge digest of public keys used by people?
00:43 < hezekiah> lonelynerd, mids: You could just add a the capability to assign PGP key ID's to a nick just like you can assign a comment.
00:43 < FillaMent> I think the best solution is to have it not integrated into IIP. Someone writes it as a piece of software (hell, I could do it but am busy) then distribute the software. Anyone who wants to run an IIP keyserver, can.
00:44 < lonelynerd> hezekiah, true, but you still need to fetch the pgp key
00:44 < nop> ok here's the funny thing
00:44 < lonelynerd> FillaMent, sounds reasonable
00:44 < nop> things we can see
00:44 < nop> we trust
00:44 < nop> like the internet
00:44 < nop> yet it's insecure
00:44 < someone> why not just have a bot upload nad download keys from internet key servers and store a fingerprint with trent
00:44 < nop> yet we have a cryptographic network
00:44 < nop> and we don't trust a soul to run a pgp keyserver
00:44 < lonelynerd> someone, that's what i suggested
00:44 < hezekiah> nop: lol! :)
00:45 < lonelynerd> nop :)
00:45 <@mids> nop
00:45 <@mids> you dont get it
00:45 < nop> I do get it
00:45 <@mids> you DONT need trust for a keyserver
00:45 < nop> I'm joking
00:45 < FillaMent> nop: Sure you do... one just has to put their pseudoidentity on line.
00:45 < FillaMent> on the line
00:45 < FillaMent> mids: Sure you do
00:45 <@mids> it is just for storage
00:45 < nop> I know mids
00:45 < nop> I was just being funny
00:45 < nop> ;)
00:45 <@mids> users should ALWAYS verify fingerprint
00:45 < someone> lonelynerd: so we don't need freenet, right?
00:45 <@mids> and check web of trust
00:45 < FillaMent> mids: I could just stick my key there and say it's nop's.
00:46 <@mids> nop: good if you are funny :) but others might not understand it
00:46 < lonelynerd> FillaMent, actually, what you wrote about pseudoidentity got me thinking. i'm wasting time and resources by having two identities on iip, one for people who know me irl and then this.
00:46 <@mids> FillaMent: thats why you can stick the fingerprint on Trent
00:46 < lonelynerd> someone, exactly, freenet is cool, but not needed this time
00:46 <@mids> (you'll have to trust trent though
00:46 < FillaMent> mids: Yes... and /how/ many people know about key fingerprints?
00:47 < lonelynerd> someone, but somebody could still post compressed digests contain many keys
00:47 <@mids> if they dont know, they shouldnt use PGP
00:47 < FillaMent> mids: yeah.. let's alienate the userbase
00:47 < lonelynerd> true
00:47 < lonelynerd> :)
00:47 <@mids> no seriously
00:47 < FillaMent> I've already had this discussion 20x with zab
00:47 < hezekiah> FillaMent: if they don't know enough about key fingerprints, then they probably don't know enough about crypto for me to trust that they haven't given away their key!
00:47 <@mids> using PGP without checking fingerprints gives a false sense of security
00:48 < FillaMent> hezekiah: And how do you sort those people out?
00:49 < lonelynerd> FillaMent, that's tricky. far too many users use pgp insecurely
00:49 < hezekiah> FillaMent: Tis the billion dollar question! That is very hard. :)
00:49 < FillaMent> If you tell people that they're too stupid to use crypto, they won't want to. They'll say, 'fuck it... I don't have time to care about privacy'... they may be sheep, but there are more of them voting than us. We have to make it easy for the sheep.
00:50 <@mids> you can try to educate them
00:50 < FillaMent> You have to get them in the classroom, and IIP/Fnet is the best classroom I know of
00:50 < hezekiah> Correct, mids. Security is only as strong as the intelligence of the person behind it.
00:50 <@mids> I totally agree FillaMent
00:51 < FillaMent> such a key storage bot would have a motd explaining that they should be checking fingerprints
00:51 <@mids> I just think that you should seperate keyserver from trust
00:51 < hezekiah> So what are we going to do with this bot and IIP? What do we want it to do, and how?
00:51 < FillaMent> I think it should be a 3rd party thing
00:52 < hezekiah> Like anonymail?
00:52 < FillaMent> no... like something that anyone can run
00:52 <@mids> anybody can run anonymail
00:52 <@mids> IF you would have the source
00:52 <@mids> :)
00:52 < FillaMent> mids: You know what I mean though
00:53 <@mids> yes
00:53 <@mids> sorry
00:53 < hezekiah> So is this something, the IIP developers need to write, or can someone who knows nothing about IIP but basic IRC can write?
00:53 * FillaMent already has a framework going
00:53 < hezekiah> OK! :)
00:54 < FillaMent> well... I'd have to hack it to change it's direction
00:54 < FillaMent> GAH!!!!!! More projects!!!! Nooooooo!
00:54 < jrand0m> give in FillaMent, just give in
00:54 < FillaMent> jrand0m: I know... I know.
00:54 < hezekiah> Basically what I'm asking is, is this something that needs to get built into IIP, or can it be independant?
00:55 < FillaMent> independent
00:55 < hezekiah> If it's independant, then I'd say, "GO FOR IT!" :)
00:55 <@mids> hezekiah: IndependEnt
00:55 * mids ducks
00:55 < hezekiah> mids: really?
00:55 <@mids> yes
00:55 * FillaMent thinks he's missing a joke.
00:56 < hezekiah> My spell checker says independant is OK.
00:56 <@mids> hezekiah: made a typo
00:56 < FillaMent> oh... yeah...
00:56 < FillaMent> dent
00:56 < FillaMent> independEnce
00:56 < hezekiah> Hmmm ... it says independent is OK too, odd.
00:56 <@mids> hezekiah: grep "^independ.nt$" /usr/share/dict/words
00:56 < FillaMent> probably a new english/old english thing
00:56 <@mids> anyway
00:56 < hezekiah> Anyway ... :)
00:57 <@mids> say we have this keybot
00:57 < hezekiah> And it will be independent of IIP. :)
00:57 <@mids> how will it get the key from a user?
00:57 < FillaMent> /msg
00:57 <@mids> the full key?
00:57 < FillaMent> no
00:57 < FillaMent> freenet
00:57 <@mids> ah
00:58 <@mids> so you msg the freenet url
00:58 <@mids> and it tries to download in the background
00:58 < lonelynerd> what's the problem? you can easily paste full key to iip.
00:58 < FillaMent> /msg Keybot STORE CHK@lakdjfa;lsdfjasd;lkfj
00:58 <@mids> lonelynerd: my key is 8 KB big
00:58 < FillaMent> lonelynerd: Not will all clients
00:58 < mihi> FillaMent: you can if you do it in blocks of 10 lines.
00:59 <@mids> the keyboard _could_ look if you are identified with trent
00:59 <@mids> keybot
00:59 <@mids> :)
00:59 < FillaMent> mids: It would have to
00:59 <@mids> and just add that as an additional flag
01:00 < FillaMent> /msg keybot MSGSTORE ad;flkjsflkjsdf;lasdrkfj
01:00 < FillaMent> /msg keybot MSGSTORE ad;flkjsflkjsdf;lasdrkfj
01:00 < FillaMent> /msg keybot MSGSTORE ad;flkjsflkjsdf;lasdrkfj
01:00 <@mids> well
01:00 < FillaMent> such a thing would best be scripted
01:00 <@mids> yes
01:00 <@mids> exactly
01:00 < jrand0m> is a centralized identity manager like trent really desireable?
01:00 < FillaMent> so either chopped and sent via msg or via freenet
01:00 <@mids> jrand0m: with a centralized ircd, yes
01:00 <@mids> maybe we should form a keybot commitee
01:01 <@mids> and let them discuss the details
01:01 < jrand0m> ah, right. yeah, I was assuming a decentralized net.
01:01 * mids opens #keybot
01:01 < FillaMent> mids: I don't see a need
01:01 <@mids> well
01:01 <@mids> we got more on the agenda
01:01 < lonelynerd> mids, uhm.
01:01 <@mids> and we are already busy for 1 hour
01:01 < FillaMent> 20 people start keybots... 1 will eventually prove the most reliable and become the defacto standard
01:02 <@mids> I mean more.. any other Future IIP things?
01:02 < hezekiah> nop?
01:02 < hezekiah> What are the major features/changes you plan for 1.2?
01:02 < nop> what
01:02 < nop> decentralization
01:02 < nop> and channel encryption
01:02 < nop> as well as client to client encryption
01:02 < nop> channel trust
01:02 < nop> using RSA keyring
01:02 < Debolaz> I have a question. What is the thing needed most from IIP now, that an ISP would be able to provide?
01:03 <@mids> money!
01:03 <@mids> millions
01:03 <@mids> so we can hire thousands of developers
01:03 < Debolaz> I was thinking more in terms of services.
01:04 < jrand0m> OC12?
01:04 <@mids> hosting is fine at sf so far
01:04 <@mids> maybe a stable node somewhere
01:05 <@mids> ...
01:05 < Debolaz> Well, I was thinking of a node sort of thing. And perhaps a file mirror.
01:05 <@mids> project release files are already mirrored on 8 servers so far
01:06 <@mids> plus on vipul's munitions
01:07 * mids slowly pushes the topic to item 3, questions
01:07 < hezekiah> Ack!
01:07 <@mids> 3) Questions?
01:08 < jrand0m> eta for decentralization (1 mo, 3 mo, 6 mo)?
01:08 < jrand0m> aka, without dependence on a central server
01:08 <@mids> no comment!
01:08 < hezekiah> mids: LOL!
01:08 < hezekiah> I really have no idea. UserX would probably have the best bet
01:09 < hezekiah> nop, UserX: are we done decentralizing "core" in isproxy yet?
01:09 < nop> um no
01:11 < hezekiah> I'm assuming that "core" comes before ircd decent., right?
01:12 < nop> first
01:12 < nop> we have to make a virc
01:12 < nop> which is a virtual irc transport
01:12 < nop> so that the irc clients can still talk to the core
01:12 < nop> without ircd
01:13 <@mids> roadmap anybody?
01:13 < hezekiah> lol. I'm clueless. :)
01:16 <@mids> *silence*
01:16 <@mids> I heared that some wanted next meeting to be earlier
01:16 < nop> yes
01:16 * FillaMent rubs his legs together furiously but fails to produce the proper chirp.
01:16 < nop> UserX can't make it at the time we have now
01:16 < nop> because of work
01:16 < hezekiah> Ah.
01:16 < nop> if we had it a couple hours earlier
01:16 <@mids> what time would be better?
01:16 < nop> this would be easier
01:16 <@mids> 21:00 UTC?
01:16 < hezekiah> If UserX would talk more we could really get some stuff done! :)
01:16 < nop> that should work
01:17 < hezekiah> Let's see ...
01:17 < hezekiah> It's normally 23:00 UTC, right?
01:17 <@mids> yes
01:17 < hezekiah> Yeah.
01:17 < hezekiah> That should work for me. :)
01:17 <@mids> 21:00 UTC it is
01:18 <@mids> ok
01:18 <@mids> I am out
01:18 <@mids> thanks for listening to me :)
01:18 * mids bows
01:18 <@mids> oh
01:18 <@mids> before I forget
01:18 <@mids> UserX, nop, hezekiah, thanks for your work on IIP so far!
01:18 < hezekiah> mids: I enjoy listening to you.
01:19 < hezekiah> mids: A pleasure! :)
01:19 < hezekiah> All you guys make it worthwhile! :)
01:19 < jrand0m> yeah, thanks for the updates. I appreciate using y'alls software
01:19 < hezekiah> (Note: I am a Yankee. No offense is meant if there are girls in the channel.)
01:19 * FillaMent curses them for this network that consumes his free time.
01:19 < hezekiah> FillaMent: lol! :)
01:19 < jrand0m> heh
01:20 * hezekiah picks up the "baf"er
01:20 < hezekiah> *BAF!*
01:20 < hezekiah> Meeting adjurned! :)
01:22 < mihi> adjourned, you mean?
01:23 < hezekiah> Over.
01:23 < hezekiah> Done.
01:23 < hezekiah> End.
01:23 < hezekiah> Dead.
01:23 < hezekiah> The meeting is dead. Long live the next meeting.
01:23 < mihi> ;-) logger is still living