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2009-03-01 05:05:18 +00:00

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{% extends "_layout.html" %}
{% block title %}I2P Development Meeting 2{% endblock %}
{% block content %}
<h3>I2P (invisiblenet) Development Meeting 2</h3>
<div class="irclog">
Courtesy of <a href="http://www.archive.org/">the wayback machine</a>.
<p>
<p>--- Log opened Tue May 28 22:39:11 2002
<p>22:39 &lt;+logger&gt; logging started
<p>22:40 -!- mids changed the topic of #iip-dev to: IIP Development Channel (moderated) | Weekly development meetings happen here at 0000 UTC wed. (tue if you are in a minus tz) | (during meetings) live logfile http://mids.student.utwente.nl/~mids/meeting2/livelog.txt
<p>22:52 -!- mode/#iip-dev [-v logger] by mids
<p>23:42 -!- mids changed the topic of #iip-dev to: IIP Development Channel (moderated) | Weekly development meetings happen here at 0000 UTC wed. (tue if you are in a minus tz) | http://mids.student.utwente.nl/~mids/iip/
<p>--- Day changed Wed May 29 2002
<p>00:16 [Users #iip-dev]
<p>00:16 [@mids] [ athena] [ logger] [ MiB] [ SubLiminaL]
<p>00:16 -!- Irssi: #iip-dev: Total of 5 nicks [1 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 4 normal]
<p>00:26 -!- mode/#iip-dev [+o UserX] by mids
<p>00:29 -!- mode/#iip-dev [+o codeshark] by mids
<p>00:32 &lt;@codeshark&gt; mids: i have an additional topic for today
<p>00:32 &lt;@codeshark&gt; we need more relays
<p>00:33 &lt;@mids&gt; where do you want it?
<p>00:34 &lt;@codeshark&gt; stability of networks
<p>00:34 &lt;@mids&gt; done
<p>00:56 &lt;@UserX&gt; mids: i'm going to have to leave about 30 minutes after the meeting starts
<p>00:56 &lt;@mids&gt; ok, if you have agenda items, please msg them to me, and they will be discussed
<p>00:56 &lt;@mids&gt; same if you want to shuffle the order
<p>00:57 &lt;@mids&gt; though I tried to move the most important ones to the top
<p>00:58 &lt;@codeshark&gt; add to agenda items: change meeting time
<p>00:59 &lt;@mids&gt; to when?
<p>00:59 &lt;@codeshark&gt; needs to be discussed
<p>01:00 &lt;@mids&gt; ok
<p>01:00 &lt;@codeshark&gt; for me it's a bit too late
<p>01:00 &lt;@codeshark&gt; 2 AM ...
<p>01:22 -!- mode/#iip-dev [+o nop] by mids
<p>01:51 -!- mode/#iip-dev [-m] by mids
<p>01:51 * mids unmoderates till it start
<p>01:51 &lt;@codeshark&gt; my notebook has power for 38 minutes
<p>01:52 * codeshark wonders if that's enough
<p>01:52 &lt;@mids&gt; brb
<p>01:53 &lt;@mids&gt; re
<p>01:54 &lt; MiB&gt; Side question: I noticed mids' page is .nl... how many of you are Dutch? I'm a Belgian myself.
<p>01:54 &lt;@mids&gt; we have atleast 10 dutch(wo)men here
<p>01:54 &lt; MiB&gt; Wow, leuk om weten :)
<p>01:55 -!- mode/#iip-dev [+o nop] by mids
<p>01:55 &lt; athena&gt; codeshark: where are you at 2am that doesn't have a power outlet?? :)
<p>01:57 &lt;@codeshark&gt; i have, but i'm too lazy
<p>01:59 -!- mids changed the topic of #iip-dev to: Meeting info, agenda, livelog including live logs in case you are late):
<p>01:59 -!- mids changed the topic of #iip-dev to: Meeting info, agenda, livelog (in case you are late): http://mids.student.utwente.nl/~mids/iip/
<p>02:00 &lt;@nop&gt; ok
<p>02:00 &lt;@nop&gt; welcome
<p>02:00 &lt;@nop&gt; to our 2nd meeting
<p>02:00 -!- mode/#iip-dev [+m] by mids
<p>02:00 &lt;@nop&gt; at IIP
<p>02:00 &lt;@mids&gt; This is the first public IIP meeting, we plan to have such a meeting each week at the same time and place.
<p>02:00 &lt;@mids&gt; Previous meeting ( http://mids.student.utwente.nl/~mids/iip/meeting1/ ) was non public, this one is.
<p>02:00 &lt;@mids&gt; We will moderate the meetings to prevent chaos. After the subject is stated, the channel will be unmoderated
<p>02:00 &lt;@mids&gt; so you can talk. If this becomes too chaotic, it will be kept moderated and then if you have a question or
<p>02:00 &lt;@mids&gt; want to contribute something, message someone with ops (@) or voice (+)
<p>02:00 &lt;@mids&gt; Meeting info, agenda, livelog (in case you are late): http://mids.student.utwente.nl/~mids/iip/
<p>02:00 &lt;@mids&gt; .
<p>02:00 &lt;@nop&gt; ok
<p>02:01 &lt;@nop&gt; let's get started, I've been so busy today
<p>02:01 &lt;@nop&gt; multitasking
<p>02:01 &lt;@nop&gt; so you'll have to excuse if I'm in and out
<p>02:01 &lt;@mids&gt; np
<p>02:01 &lt;@nop&gt; agenda list
<p>02:01 &lt;@mids&gt; Topics:
<p>02:01 &lt;@mids&gt; 1) Welcome
<p>02:01 &lt;@mids&gt; 2) Stability network
<p>02:01 &lt;@mids&gt; 3) Project management
<p>02:01 &lt;@mids&gt; 4) Instant Anonymous Messenger
<p>02:01 &lt;@mids&gt; 5) Website
<p>02:01 &lt;@mids&gt; 6) Documentation
<p>02:01 &lt;@nop&gt; ok
<p>02:01 &lt;@mids&gt; 7) Other
<p>02:01 &lt;@nop&gt; stability network
<p>02:01 &lt;@mids&gt; 8) Questions?
<p>02:01 &lt;@mids&gt; 9) Next meeting
<p>02:01 &lt;@mids&gt; .
<p>02:02 -!- mode/#iip-dev [-m] by mids
<p>02:02 &lt;@nop&gt; as you may have noticed
<p>02:02 &lt;@mids&gt; maybe initial questions?
<p>02:02 &lt;@nop&gt; sure
<p>02:02 &lt;@mids&gt; anybody....
<p>02:02 &lt; Neo&gt; hi.
<p>02:02 &lt; Neo&gt; do you know the causes of the network problems?
<p>02:02 &lt;@mids&gt; Neo: that will be answered in a minute
<p>02:02 &lt;@nop&gt; ok
<p>02:02 &lt;@mids&gt; first we look if there are initial questions
<p>02:02 &lt;@nop&gt; any initial questions
<p>02:02 &lt;@mids&gt; guess not, nop go on (+m)
<p>02:03 &lt;@nop&gt; ok
<p>02:03 &lt;@nop&gt; network stability
<p>02:03 &lt;@nop&gt; the reasons of this are many
<p>02:03 &lt;@nop&gt; for one
<p>02:03 &lt;@nop&gt; this network has been sitting in a laptop on a desk at my work for a long time
<p>02:03 &lt;@nop&gt; problem with this is
<p>02:03 &lt;@nop&gt; someone moved the laptop
<p>02:03 &lt;@nop&gt; not thinking it needed to be on
<p>02:03 &lt;@nop&gt; so... that was one problem
<p>02:04 &lt;@nop&gt; second
<p>02:04 &lt;@nop&gt; I decided to move it
<p>02:04 &lt;@nop&gt; to a beefier box
<p>02:04 &lt;@nop&gt; especially because of all the Diffie-Hellman calculations
<p>02:05 &lt;@mids&gt; can you explain the case with the DH?
<p>02:05 &lt;@nop&gt; it is now gone from a 300 mhz
<p>02:05 &lt;@nop&gt; actually
<p>02:05 &lt;@nop&gt; 366 mhz
<p>02:05 &lt;@nop&gt; to a 933 mhz
<p>02:05 &lt;@nop&gt; from 128 megs of ram to 512
<p>02:05 &lt;@nop&gt; big difference
<p>02:05 &lt;@nop&gt; :)
<p>02:05 &lt;@nop&gt; Pent II - Pent III
<p>02:05 &lt;@nop&gt; ok
<p>02:05 &lt;@nop&gt; from that point
<p>02:05 &lt;@nop&gt; we found a memfree assertion error - actually athena also discovered it running rc2
<p>02:06 &lt;@nop&gt; and this problem needed to be addressed
<p>02:06 &lt;@nop&gt; which was
<p>02:06 &lt;@nop&gt; and just recently
<p>02:06 &lt;@nop&gt; upon fixing that problem
<p>02:06 &lt;@nop&gt; it has been since stable
<p>02:06 &lt;@nop&gt; now
<p>02:06 &lt;@nop&gt; we would really love to move away from centralization and that's our main goal
<p>02:06 &lt;@nop&gt; but it's a one step at a time type of deal, and this is a developer's network
<p>02:06 &lt;@nop&gt; so sometimes reliability is not it's best
<p>02:07 &lt;@nop&gt; but I am trying to keep everyone happy at this level
<p>02:07 &lt;@nop&gt; any questions
<p>02:07 &lt;@nop&gt; regarding this matter
<p>02:07 &lt;@mids&gt; can you explain the case with the DH?
<p>02:07 &lt;@nop&gt; Case with DH
<p>02:07 &lt;@nop&gt; Diffie-Hellman key exchange calculations take a lot of processes
<p>02:07 &lt;@nop&gt; so when it goes down for a sec
<p>02:07 &lt;@nop&gt; and everyone tries to connect
<p>02:07 &lt;@nop&gt; it spikes the cpu at 99%
<p>02:08 &lt;@nop&gt; because lots of calculations are taking place
<p>02:08 &lt;@nop&gt; our goal
<p>02:08 -!- mode/#iip-dev [-s] by mids
<p>02:08 &lt;@nop&gt; to fix this
<p>02:08 &lt;@nop&gt; we have done a few things
<p>02:08 &lt;@nop&gt; we put a poll/delay to handle calculations better
<p>02:08 &lt;@nop&gt; and 2
<p>02:08 &lt;@nop&gt; we are planning on implemented a better Multi-precision library in the future
<p>02:09 &lt;@nop&gt; any more questions regarding this matter
<p>02:09 &lt;@mids&gt; I have one thing to ad:
<p>02:09 &lt;@nop&gt; ok
<p>02:09 &lt;@nop&gt; please
<p>02:09 &lt;@mids&gt; network graph: http://mids.student.utwente.nl/~mids/iipstats/network.html
<p>02:09 &lt;@mids&gt; as you see (especially at weekly)
<p>02:09 &lt;@mids&gt; after a long network downtime
<p>02:09 &lt;@mids&gt; we loose a big time of users
<p>02:09 &lt;@mids&gt; and it takes a long time to gain them back
<p>02:09 &lt;@mids&gt; this is bad for our reputation
<p>02:09 &lt;@nop&gt; and for anonymity
<p>02:09 &lt;@mids&gt; maybe we should communicate better with the users
<p>02:09 &lt;@nop&gt; more users the better
<p>02:10 &lt;@nop&gt; agreed
<p>02:10 &lt;@mids&gt; when you know that the net will go down: do a global announcement
<p>02:10 &lt;@nop&gt; ok
<p>02:10 &lt;@nop&gt; sometimes
<p>02:10 &lt;@nop&gt; I don't know
<p>02:10 &lt;@mids&gt; if you observe that it is down: update status on site
<p>02:10 &lt;@mids&gt; .
<p>02:10 &lt;@nop&gt; ok
<p>02:10 &lt;@nop&gt; any questions or comments on this topic
<p>02:10 &lt; athena&gt; if i can make a suggestion: a brief update in the ircd motd would be great also
<p>02:10 * Neo things update status on site is really good idea
<p>02:11 &lt;@nop&gt; ok athena : you are noted, and I will make my efforts in doing so
<p>02:11 &lt; athena&gt; thanks'
<p>02:11 &lt; Neo&gt; (sometimes I don't know if it is the network or just me)
<p>02:11 &lt;@nop&gt; Neo and mids I agree on update status
<p>02:11 &lt;@nop&gt; great idea
<p>02:11 &lt;@mids&gt; codeshark had something on the node status
<p>02:11 &lt;@nop&gt; k
<p>02:11 &lt;@codeshark&gt; just thought it could be integrated in the nodechecker
<p>02:12 &lt;@nop&gt; please elaborate
<p>02:12 &lt;@codeshark&gt; if i see that all hosts are down (=network down), i could update the status page
<p>02:12 &lt;@nop&gt; cool
<p>02:12 &lt;@nop&gt; sounds great
<p>02:13 &lt;@nop&gt; this also could go well with nym's who's online, instead of that, just have a network status page
<p>02:13 &lt;@mids&gt; please use . when done
<p>02:13 &lt;@codeshark&gt; .
<p>02:13 &lt;@nop&gt; .
<p>02:13 &lt; Neo&gt; .
<p>02:13 &lt;@mids&gt; how many public relays do we have?
<p>02:13 &lt;@mids&gt; .
<p>02:13 &lt;@codeshark&gt; right now we 15 in the nodechecker list
<p>02:13 &lt;@codeshark&gt; 13 are online
<p>02:14 &lt;@codeshark&gt; .
<p>02:14 &lt;@nop&gt; agenda
<p>02:14 &lt;@mids&gt; do we need more?
<p>02:14 &lt;@mids&gt; .
<p>02:14 &lt;@nop&gt; we always need more
<p>02:14 &lt;@nop&gt; that's a given
<p>02:14 &lt;@nop&gt; :)
<p>02:14 &lt;@nop&gt; .
<p>02:14 &lt;@codeshark&gt; not for stability
<p>02:14 &lt;@codeshark&gt; but for anonymity
<p>02:14 &lt;@codeshark&gt; .
<p>02:14 &lt;@nop&gt; yes
<p>02:14 &lt;@nop&gt; .
<p>02:14 &lt;@mids&gt; other questions/
<p>02:14 &lt;@mids&gt; .
<p>02:14 &lt;@nop&gt; this . thing is funny
<p>02:14 &lt;@nop&gt; .
<p>02:14 * mids does no . after a question anymore
<p>02:15 &lt;@mids&gt; okay, next
<p>02:15 &lt;@mids&gt; 3) Project management
<p>02:15 &lt;@nop&gt; mids - you might want to open up on that
<p>02:15 &lt;@mids&gt; maybe we should try to be more professional
<p>02:15 &lt;@mids&gt; while keeping it fun
<p>02:15 &lt;@nop&gt; well
<p>02:15 &lt;@nop&gt; maybe more organized
<p>02:15 &lt;@mids&gt; publish our milestones
<p>02:15 &lt;@nop&gt; professionaly is up for debate
<p>02:16 &lt;@mids&gt; delegate tasks
<p>02:16 &lt;@nop&gt; the challenge with professional is we can't be committed every single day to this, because of real life
<p>02:16 &lt;@nop&gt; but yes
<p>02:16 &lt;@nop&gt; we should definitely delegate tasks
<p>02:16 &lt;@nop&gt; which
<p>02:16 &lt;@nop&gt; I think we do
<p>02:16 &lt;@nop&gt; but not everyone has remained in contact about their task
<p>02:16 &lt;@mids&gt; maybe make delegation more open
<p>02:16 &lt;@mids&gt; so everybody knows who to inform about what
<p>02:16 &lt;@nop&gt; ok
<p>02:16 &lt;@nop&gt; yes
<p>02:16 * Neo has a suggestion re: project management helper that we are using in DC.
<p>02:16 &lt;@mids&gt; I remember several cases of double work
<p>02:16 &lt;@mids&gt; .
<p>02:16 &lt;@mids&gt; yes Neo ?
<p>02:17 &lt; Neo&gt; Mr Project.
<p>02:17 &lt;@nop&gt; an agent?
<p>02:17 &lt; Neo&gt; Here is our release schedule: http://citystateinc.com/dc/dc_project_5-28-2002.gif
<p>02:17 &lt; Neo&gt; Its a task sheduler thing, take a look at the gif it explains it pretty much.
<p>02:17 &lt; Neo&gt; Its just a helper tool.
<p>02:18 &lt;@nop&gt; sounds good
<p>02:18 &lt;@nop&gt; also
<p>02:18 &lt;@nop&gt; we need a whiteboard type communication device
<p>02:18 &lt;@nop&gt; something that can allow developer's to communicate visually
<p>02:18 &lt;@nop&gt; especially as we dive deeper into complications of anonymous network
<p>02:18 &lt;@nop&gt; s
<p>02:18 &lt;@codeshark&gt; mids and I tried some whiteboard stuff
<p>02:18 &lt;@nop&gt; networks
<p>02:18 &lt;@codeshark&gt; but it doesn't seem to be very useful
<p>02:18 &lt;@codeshark&gt; at least the tools we tried
<p>02:18 &lt;@codeshark&gt; .
<p>02:18 &lt;@nop&gt; hmm
<p>02:18 &lt;@mids&gt; those we tried were too slow and limited
<p>02:18 &lt;@mids&gt; .
<p>02:19 &lt;@nop&gt; hmm
<p>02:19 &lt;@nop&gt; what did you try
<p>02:19 &lt;@mids&gt; some freshmeat ones
<p>02:19 &lt;@nop&gt; k
<p>02:19 &lt;@mids&gt; does anybody have good experience with public whiteboards?
<p>02:19 &lt;@nop&gt; guess not
<p>02:19 &lt;@mids&gt; hm, nope
<p>02:19 &lt;@mids&gt; :)
<p>02:19 &lt;@nop&gt; well
<p>02:19 &lt;@nop&gt; maybe we should delegate a task
<p>02:19 &lt;@mids&gt; put it on the todo
<p>02:20 &lt;@nop&gt; todo/task delegateion
<p>02:20 &lt;@nop&gt; who wants to assist in finding a whiteboard that would suit developer's needs
<p>02:20 &lt;@nop&gt; it can always be more than one person as well
<p>02:20 &lt;@mids&gt; well, if I find one, I wont keep it a secrey
<p>02:20 &lt;@nop&gt; k
<p>02:20 &lt;@nop&gt; well it's on the todo
<p>02:20 &lt;@mids&gt; but it has to be multiplatform
<p>02:20 &lt;@nop&gt; yes
<p>02:21 &lt;@mids&gt; ok
<p>02:21 &lt; Neo&gt; nop, what do you see people finding the whiteboard useful for? (curious of your ideas)
<p>02:21 &lt;@nop&gt; well, I am visual with networks
<p>02:22 &lt;@nop&gt; and I know there have been a few times
<p>02:22 &lt;@nop&gt; that visual drawings make sense
<p>02:22 &lt;@nop&gt; rather than chatting on irc
<p>02:22 &lt; Neo&gt; k, thanks :)
<p>02:22 &lt;@nop&gt; that can be limiting and hard to get your algorithm/network design across
<p>02:22 &lt;@mids&gt; especially the explination of the relays
<p>02:22 &lt; Neo&gt; some screen grabs could come in handy for docs also.
<p>02:22 &lt;@nop&gt; yes
<p>02:23 &lt;@nop&gt; so far
<p>02:23 &lt;@nop&gt; I've come to the point of drawing it out and faxing it last time
<p>02:23 &lt;@nop&gt; :)
<p>02:23 &lt;@mids&gt; lol
<p>02:23 &lt;@nop&gt; ok - anyway
<p>02:23 &lt;@codeshark&gt; nop: email :)
<p>02:23 &lt;@nop&gt; noted that whiteboard would be a plus
<p>02:23 &lt;@nop&gt; yeah yeah
<p>02:23 &lt;@mids&gt; other point:
<p>02:23 &lt;@nop&gt; email smemail
<p>02:23 &lt;@nop&gt; you guys think we're like geeks or somethin
<p>02:24 &lt;@mids&gt; banks suggested to follow the thought of the Cathedral Bazaar thing by Eric Raymond: release often
<p>02:24 &lt;@nop&gt; I'm still learning email ;)
<p>02:24 &lt;@mids&gt; I think that is under project management too
<p>02:24 &lt;@nop&gt; umm, link
<p>02:24 &lt;@codeshark&gt; (... release early)
<p>02:24 &lt;@mids&gt; http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/writings/cathedral-bazaar/
<p>02:25 &lt;@codeshark&gt; i think that's what we doing. or do you want to release more often?
<p>02:25 &lt;@codeshark&gt; .
<p>02:25 &lt;@mids&gt; Banks?
<p>02:25 &lt; Banks&gt; I'm not sure yet
<p>02:26 * mids guesses he is just anxious to see RC2
<p>02:26 &lt; Banks&gt; it helps people to see that the path to RC2 is advancing swiftly :)
<p>02:26 &lt;@nop&gt; RC2 is done - it's docs that are being the hold up
<p>02:26 &lt;@mids&gt; docs are point 6
<p>02:26 &lt;@nop&gt; k
<p>02:27 &lt; Banks&gt; Docs on RC2?
<p>02:27 &lt;@mids&gt; Banks: yes
<p>02:27 &lt;@nop&gt; well, docs for 1.1 official release
<p>02:27 &lt;@nop&gt; but yes
<p>02:27 &lt;@nop&gt; if we don't get progress done
<p>02:27 &lt;@nop&gt; on docs
<p>02:27 &lt;@nop&gt; then we'll be lagged period
<p>02:27 &lt;@nop&gt; for release of 1.1 Release
<p>02:27 &lt; Banks&gt; I've just done a ton on the docs but not for RC2. Haven't sent it yet. Don't know cvs
<p>02:28 &lt;@nop&gt; hehe
<p>02:28 &lt;@nop&gt; ok
<p>02:28 &lt;@codeshark&gt; banks: what did you do?
<p>02:28 &lt; Aster&gt; hola
<p>02:28 &lt;@mids&gt; hi Aster please check the notices
<p>02:28 &lt; Aster&gt; which notices?
<p>02:28 &lt; Aster&gt; im soo lost
<p>02:28 &lt; Aster&gt; whats going onn? aaahhhh
<p>02:28 &lt;@mids&gt; [notice(Aster)] welcome, the channel is moderated if you have something to say, message me or somebody else with ops or voice
<p>02:28 &lt;@mids&gt; [notice(Aster)] Information, agenda and logs: http://mids.student.utwente.nl/~mids/iip/
<p>02:29 &lt; Banks&gt; codeshark: A handful of things. Related quotes at the beginning of each chapter, a small FAQ ...
<p>02:29 &lt; Banks&gt; How to contribute
<p>02:29 &lt; Banks&gt; Why Anonymity?
<p>02:29 &lt; ptsc&gt; suggestion if i may be so bold: default option, which can be disabled, of 'crippling' urls to be non-clickable, in the proxy.
<p>02:29 &lt;@codeshark&gt; ok. we have to talk about that in point 6
<p>02:29 &lt;@mids&gt; great
<p>02:29 &lt; Banks&gt; How to configure a WinXP firewall to allow IIP
<p>02:30 &lt;@mids&gt; ptsc: what do you mean?
<p>02:30 &lt; ptsc&gt; perhaps by chaning http to some other string such as wysiwyg or url or something unlikely to be anonymity compromising, like the anonymity tripwire in freenet
<p>02:30 &lt;@mids&gt; you mean, that if I say http://www.google.com/ that it will be censored?
<p>02:31 &lt; ptsc&gt; since the easiest means of compromising anonymity is to post a honeypot url to a crowded channel
<p>02:31 &lt; SkyRat&gt; no just not clickable
<p>02:31 &lt;@mids&gt; anybody want to respond on that one?
<p>02:31 &lt; ptsc&gt; this should be something that can be disabled.
<p>02:31 &lt; Banks&gt; That would have to be done at the IRC client level wouldn't it?
<p>02:31 &lt; athena&gt; or server
<p>02:32 &lt;@mids&gt; it can be done on the server level
<p>02:32 &lt;@mids&gt; but I think there is some responcibility for the user
<p>02:32 &lt; ptsc&gt; contaminating server traffic might be bad
<p>02:32 &lt;@mids&gt; should we also change telephone numbers?
<p>02:32 &lt; Banks&gt; Lot of overhead though isn't it?
<p>02:32 * Neo thinks manipulating content should not be done with the system. that is a pure client issue
<p>02:32 &lt; athena&gt; think this problem can't be solved
<p>02:33 &lt; Banks&gt; It's a good point though
<p>02:33 &lt;@mids&gt; maybe a specialmodified security client
<p>02:33 &lt;@mids&gt; see point 5!
<p>02:33 &lt;@mids&gt; err 4
<p>02:33 * Banks is trying not to jump to the docs part, "I mentioned it in the docs"
<p>02:33 &lt;@mids&gt; hehe
<p>02:33 * Neo thinks mids is correct, it has a place in a custom client maybe, or in "security" patches to existing clients
<p>02:33 &lt; athena&gt; there should be discussion of this in the manual... i.e. "ways of losing your anonymity"
<p>02:34 &lt;@mids&gt; I suggest going on , and see what point 4 brings us after MiBs comment
<p>02:34 &lt; MiB&gt; :)
<p>02:34 &lt; MiB&gt; You spoke about better communication with users a bit earlier, how do you feel about a public mailing list and/or BBS where developers and testers can conversate with each other?
<p>02:34 &lt;@mids&gt; afaik we have 1 mailinglist
<p>02:34 * athena points out #iip
<p>02:34 &lt;@mids&gt; iip-dev mainly for development
<p>02:35 &lt; Banks&gt; Maybe an IRC chan where people who can't connect to IIP can go?
<p>02:35 &lt;@mids&gt; although also other topics
<p>02:35 &lt;@codeshark&gt; we have the bug-list on sourceforge too
<p>02:35 &lt; ptsc&gt; i actually have written a sort of 'guide for the clueless'
<p>02:35 &lt; ptsc&gt; including some of these
<p>02:36 &lt; Banks&gt; I saw that at deja, ptsc. Nice.
<p>02:36 &lt; ptsc&gt; http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=ss9rdugclv39cemnk4ue9t8jv6n8se8a3h%404ax.com&output=gplain
<p>02:36 &lt; ptsc&gt; it is written to a specialized audience concerning an iip channel that is as yet relatively uninhabited
<p>02:36 &lt; ptsc&gt; thx
<p>02:36 &lt; Banks&gt; It's a good idea for a chan
<p>02:37 &lt; ptsc&gt; i think it captures the "fool's mate" ways of trashing your own anonymity, but i do believe more sophisticated attacks could be made especially by an opponent who both has surveillance capability and is running a node.
<p>02:37 &lt;@mids&gt; cool for an howto I would say!
<p>02:38 &lt;@mids&gt; noe?j
<p>02:38 &lt;@mids&gt; err
<p>02:38 &lt; Neo&gt; Re: BBS - Distribued City is a ssl/web based community system located at xs4all. We welcome IIP forums in our forum section.
<p>02:38 &lt;@mids&gt; neo?
<p>02:38 &lt; Banks&gt; I tried to put some of it into the docs.
<p>02:38 &lt; ptsc&gt; i think it's beyond a mid-level opponent such as an unaided church of scientology but assisted by hackers and/or a corrupt node, and a manipulated federal agency (FBI), i think you could possibly bust it open
<p>02:39 &lt; ptsc&gt; it doesn't have the latency of the remailer network (and in fact couldn't, and still be reasonably 'instant')
<p>02:39 &lt; Neo&gt; The DC system also has GPG Web private messaging. Mids and I and others have kept in contact when IIP was down, and also relevant discussion of issues related to IIP.
<p>02:39 &lt; Neo&gt; We are in beta now, but opening to public soon.
<p>02:39 &lt; Neo&gt; .
<p>02:39 &lt;@mids&gt; So we can use DC for the non-irc part of IIP
<p>02:39 &lt;@mids&gt; forums, announcements
<p>02:39 &lt; Neo&gt; You bet.
<p>02:39 &lt; Banks&gt; A corrupt node would have to unscramble the end-to-end encryption too, wouldn't it?
<p>02:39 &lt; Neo&gt; We trashed our chat system, and are using IIP, so you guys jump right in.
<p>02:40 &lt;@mids&gt; Banks: err, thats offtopic atm
<p>02:40 &lt; Banks&gt; mids: You're right
<p>02:40 &lt;@mids&gt; I suggest discussing the IIP internals later
<p>02:40 &lt; ptsc&gt; i guess by 'corrupt' i meant the person rather than the node
<p>02:40 &lt;@mids&gt; lets hurry and move on before chocolate joins
<p>02:40 &lt;@mids&gt; any objections?
<p>02:40 &lt; ptsc&gt; and by that, i mean just that the person is going to run netstat periodically and log who is connecting to them,
<p>02:41 &lt; ptsc&gt; while also being logged in a channel as a nick, watching who shows up, and weeding people out by a process of elimination
<p>02:41 &lt; Neo&gt; We can give IIP their own custom forums. - Newbies - Tech - Dev... let us know.
<p>02:41 -!- mode/#iip-dev [+o Chocolate] by mids
<p>02:41 &lt; ptsc&gt; they could also get network internals of other nodes they connect to, and then obtain subpoenas/'carnivore' capability on those nodes
<p>02:41 &lt;@mids&gt; ptsc: its offtopic
<p>02:41 &lt;@mids&gt; please discuss it later
<p>02:41 &lt;@mids&gt; (getting chaotic)
<p>02:41 &lt; ptsc&gt; apologies
<p>02:41 &lt;@mids&gt; np
<p>02:42 &lt;@mids&gt; 4) Instant Anonymous Messenger (wilde wont be here)
<p>02:42 &lt;@mids&gt; wilde was too sleepy
<p>02:42 &lt;@mids&gt; so u
<p>02:42 &lt;@nop&gt; ok
<p>02:42 &lt;@mids&gt; so I 'll just paste what he said:
<p>02:42 &lt;@nop&gt; please do
<p>02:42 &lt;@mids&gt; Status and features:
<p>02:42 &lt;@mids&gt; wilde started to work on an IM, easy to use program to connect to IIP.
<p>02:42 &lt;@mids&gt; He got the IRC connection working. The plugin system works too.
<p>02:42 &lt;@mids&gt; Apart from IRC and IM support there will also be features for digital
<p>02:42 &lt;@mids&gt; currencies. He is looking into cryptography now.
<p>02:42 &lt;@mids&gt; For further information email wilde@invisiblenet.net or visit #iam-dev
<p>02:42 &lt;@mids&gt; .
<p>02:42 &lt;@nop&gt; ok
<p>02:42 &lt;@nop&gt; also
<p>02:42 &lt;@nop&gt; if freenet ever gets stable
<p>02:42 &lt;@nop&gt; it would be nice to add a dcc transport
<p>02:42 &lt;@nop&gt; that utilizes freenet
<p>02:42 &lt;@nop&gt; as a plugin
<p>02:43 &lt;@mids&gt; yup
<p>02:43 &lt;@nop&gt; ok
<p>02:43 &lt;@nop&gt; sounds good
<p>02:43 &lt;@nop&gt; any questions
<p>02:43 &lt;@mids&gt; and maybe, like ptsc suggested
<p>02:43 &lt; Banks&gt; True, but won't RC2 have DCC?
<p>02:43 &lt;@mids&gt; filter the IRC, to disable urls
<p>02:43 &lt;@nop&gt; IIP rc2 will not have dcc
<p>02:43 &lt;@nop&gt; it compromises anonymity
<p>02:43 &lt;@nop&gt; file sharing will have to be later within IIP
<p>02:44 &lt;@nop&gt; but it's in planning
<p>02:44 &lt; Banks&gt; ok, I thought there might be a way to do it without compromise
<p>02:44 &lt;@nop&gt; not till we decentralize
<p>02:44 &lt;@nop&gt; then there will be
<p>02:44 &lt;@nop&gt; utilizing broker agents
<p>02:44 &lt;@nop&gt; etc
<p>02:44 &lt;@nop&gt; we have a fileserv plugin for xchat
<p>02:44 &lt;@nop&gt; that does base64
<p>02:44 &lt;@nop&gt; anyway
<p>02:44 &lt;@nop&gt; that's the plan
<p>02:44 &lt;@nop&gt; ok
<p>02:44 &lt;@nop&gt; next topic
<p>02:45 &lt;@mids&gt; maybe questions
<p>02:45 &lt;@mids&gt; but we dont know all answers
<p>02:45 &lt;@mids&gt; cause wilde aint here
<p>02:45 &lt;@mids&gt; :)
<p>02:45 &lt;@mids&gt; so just ask, he can read them in the logs
<p>02:45 &lt; Neo&gt; wilde coding in perl?
<p>02:45 &lt;@nop&gt; java
<p>02:45 &lt;@mids&gt; java
<p>02:45 &lt;@nop&gt; I believe
<p>02:46 &lt;@mids&gt; he bases it on a full IM client that a friend of him wrote
<p>02:46 &lt; Neo&gt; ah
<p>02:46 &lt;@mids&gt; okay, lets hurry to topic 5
<p>02:46 &lt;@mids&gt; we have 9 in total
<p>02:47 &lt;@nop&gt; topic number 5 is ...
<p>02:47 &lt;@nop&gt; drum roll please
<p>02:47 &lt;@mids&gt; write your burning quesitons down
<p>02:47 &lt;@mids&gt; 5) Website
<p>02:47 &lt;@nop&gt; ahh
<p>02:47 &lt;@nop&gt; yes
<p>02:47 &lt;@nop&gt; the lag
<p>02:47 &lt;@mids&gt; I want to give the word to nym
<p>02:47 &lt;@nop&gt; yeah
<p>02:47 &lt;@nop&gt; umm
<p>02:47 &lt;@mids&gt; nym?
<p>02:47 &lt;@mids&gt; okay
<p>02:47 &lt;@nop&gt; ok
<p>02:47 &lt;@nop&gt; site looks ok
<p>02:47 &lt;@mids&gt; he was here last week
<p>02:47 &lt;@nop&gt; the fear I have
<p>02:47 &lt;@mids&gt; and appologied for the delay
<p>02:47 &lt;@nop&gt; is that it will take him forever to update any changes
<p>02:47 &lt;@mids&gt; he has made a new updayed design:
<p>02:47 &lt;@mids&gt; http://buttsnot.com/invisible2.html
<p>02:48 &lt;@nop&gt; or press releases
<p>02:48 &lt;@mids&gt; the first one was http://mids.student.utwente.nl/~mids/iip/meeting1/draft2.jpg
<p>02:48 &lt;@nop&gt; so dunno
<p>02:48 &lt;@mids&gt; any comments on the looks?
<p>02:48 &lt;@nop&gt; and we need a plan b
<p>02:48 &lt;@nop&gt; just in case he never shows a stable site
<p>02:48 &lt; tikk&gt; nice job.. and i'm a designer
<p>02:48 &lt; tikk&gt; there's a few table errors
<p>02:48 &lt; Neo&gt; ellison is available for plan b
<p>02:48 &lt; Aster&gt; its ok, could use some more work
<p>02:49 &lt; tikk&gt; cosmetic stuff
<p>02:49 &lt;@nop&gt; neo are you sure
<p>02:49 &lt;@nop&gt; that would be great
<p>02:49 &lt;@nop&gt; also Neo
<p>02:49 &lt;@nop&gt; thnx for the IIP stuff you wrote
<p>02:49 &lt;@mids&gt; I think it is not good enough for &gt; 15 hours work
<p>02:49 &lt;@nop&gt; it's impressive
<p>02:49 &lt; Neo&gt; yes, he already offered
<p>02:49 &lt;@nop&gt; great
<p>02:49 &lt; Neo&gt; what IIP stuff?
<p>02:49 &lt;@nop&gt; dc
<p>02:49 &lt;@nop&gt; on dc beta
<p>02:50 &lt; Neo&gt; OH. ellison did that :)
<p>02:50 &lt;@nop&gt; also
<p>02:50 &lt;@nop&gt; well thank him
<p>02:50 &lt;@nop&gt; also
<p>02:50 &lt;@nop&gt; does ellison do logo design?
<p>02:50 &lt; Neo&gt; will do, he will read this log
<p>02:50 &lt;@mids&gt; FYI, ellison is the gfx guy of Distributed City
<p>02:50 &lt; Neo&gt; you bet.
<p>02:50 &lt;@nop&gt; kewl
<p>02:50 &lt; Neo&gt; and alta/lese/liquid privacy
<p>02:50 &lt;@nop&gt; is he fast working
<p>02:50 &lt;@nop&gt; like we would be able to see something soon
<p>02:50 &lt;@nop&gt; type of deal
<p>02:50 &lt;@nop&gt; because I"m bout ready to put my foot down
<p>02:50 &lt;@nop&gt; and go with plan b
<p>02:51 &lt; Neo&gt; he will be on later, we can have a quick meeting then, I can't speak for him
<p>02:51 &lt;@mids&gt; update on nym
<p>02:51 &lt;@nop&gt; ok
<p>02:51 &lt;@mids&gt; he got $100 from us to do a design
<p>02:51 &lt;@mids&gt; payed out of the donations depot
<p>02:51 &lt; Neo&gt; now but I know that he was very interested in doing something for IIP if the opportunity arose.
<p>02:51 &lt;@mids&gt; all the donators agreed
<p>02:51 &lt;@mids&gt; but, what we have now is not usable
<p>02:51 &lt;@mids&gt; it is going too slow
<p>02:51 &lt;@nop&gt; and we know 100$ ain't much
<p>02:52 &lt;@nop&gt; but I don't feel that we even have that worth
<p>02:52 &lt;@mids&gt; but well, we dont have more
<p>02:52 &lt;@mids&gt; I am sure that nym means it all right
<p>02:52 &lt;@nop&gt; we gave it to him like more than a month ago
<p>02:52 &lt;@mids&gt; but lacks the time
<p>02:52 &lt;@nop&gt; yes
<p>02:52 &lt;@nop&gt; I understand
<p>02:52 &lt;@nop&gt; but we have to be practical
<p>02:52 &lt; Aster&gt; once he gets the design done, someone else (ide be willing to) get the rest together
<p>02:52 &lt;@mids&gt; we want a website asap
<p>02:52 &lt;@mids&gt; Aster: thanks
<p>02:52 &lt;@nop&gt; and good logo's
<p>02:52 &lt;@nop&gt; yes thanks
<p>02:53 &lt;@mids&gt; so what are the options:
<p>02:53 &lt;@mids&gt; - use what we have and craft it into a site
<p>02:53 &lt;@mids&gt; - put another gfx guy/girl on it
<p>02:53 &lt;@mids&gt; - keep the old site
<p>02:53 &lt;@nop&gt; old site has to go
<p>02:53 &lt;@nop&gt; I like it
<p>02:53 &lt;@nop&gt; but it's too villany
<p>02:53 &lt;@mids&gt; - wait for nym to finish it
<p>02:54 &lt;@nop&gt; and casper == copyright infringement
<p>02:54 &lt; Banks&gt; I think the old site is pretty good. Logo and Times New Roman aside.
<p>02:54 &lt;@nop&gt; hehe
<p>02:54 &lt;@nop&gt; you know
<p>02:54 &lt;@nop&gt; you'd be surprised
<p>02:54 &lt;@nop&gt; but that was done in 10 minutes
<p>02:54 &lt; Banks&gt; shame that Gamespy had to steal our logo before we had a chance to create it :)
<p>02:54 &lt;@nop&gt; haha
<p>02:55 &lt;@nop&gt; ok
<p>02:55 &lt;@nop&gt; so on topic of website
<p>02:55 &lt;@nop&gt; reverting back to old one is last option at most
<p>02:55 &lt;@nop&gt; I'm really wanting to go for a brighter look
<p>02:55 &lt;@nop&gt; something more professional
<p>02:55 &lt;@nop&gt; because
<p>02:55 &lt;@nop&gt; if we get attention by press
<p>02:55 &lt;@nop&gt; the darkness will give way to the "media hacker" term
<p>02:56 &lt; Banks&gt; true. I think we should think about who the target market is and cater it to that.
<p>02:56 &lt;@nop&gt; and IIP will not go down like that
<p>02:56 &lt;@nop&gt; Banks: agreed
<p>02:56 &lt;@nop&gt; the target market is how you market it though
<p>02:56 &lt;@nop&gt; the way I see this
<p>02:56 &lt; Neo&gt; ellison can *REALLY* help you with this.
<p>02:56 &lt;@nop&gt; yes
<p>02:56 &lt;@nop&gt; I see
<p>02:56 &lt;@mids&gt; I have seen ellisons work
<p>02:56 &lt;@nop&gt; I have as well, it's very good
<p>02:56 &lt;@mids&gt; and if he wants, lets give him a try
<p>02:56 &lt;@nop&gt; PR and website == one idea
<p>02:57 &lt; Banks&gt; True, but there's already an audience for it. Slashdot-types.
<p>02:57 &lt; Aster&gt; market to both groups: hackers and corp looking...have 2 sites
<p>02:57 &lt; Aroonkoa&gt; And kuro5hin. :)
<p>02:57 &lt;@mids&gt; about the $100, I see it as lost
<p>02:57 &lt;@nop&gt; yes
<p>02:57 &lt;@mids&gt; and we dont do such things again in the future
<p>02:57 &lt;@Chocolate&gt; 2 sites is way to much overhead
<p>02:57 &lt;@mids&gt; lets name it a learning phase
<p>02:57 &lt;@nop&gt; yes
<p>02:57 &lt; Aster&gt; chocolate: in what way?
<p>02:57 &lt;@nop&gt; we want the invisibleNet front page
<p>02:57 &lt; Banks&gt; The program itself is always significantly more important than the website.
<p>02:57 &lt;@nop&gt; then the Invisible Irc Project page
<p>02:58 &lt; Banks&gt; A good program markets itself.
<p>02:58 &lt;@nop&gt; InvisibleNet is the Dev team
<p>02:58 &lt;@nop&gt; all of us
<p>02:58 &lt;@nop&gt; everyone using IIP
<p>02:58 &lt;@nop&gt; is part of an invisibleNet
<p>02:58 &lt;@nop&gt; :)
<p>02:58 &lt;@nop&gt; a society so secret we don't even know ourselves
<p>02:58 &lt;@nop&gt; ;)
<p>02:58 &lt;@nop&gt; but seriously
<p>02:58 &lt;@nop&gt; and then we need the main IIP page
<p>02:58 &lt;@mids&gt; tikk offers his help too
<p>02:58 &lt;@mids&gt; maybe we can make a little web-board
<p>02:58 &lt;@nop&gt; tikk, much appreciated
<p>02:58 &lt;@mids&gt; for input etc
<p>02:59 &lt; Neo&gt; Banks: yes, but part of the marketing needs to cater to PR for political reasons ciphers only go so far
<p>02:59 &lt;@mids&gt; who wants to participate in the webboard? (just an idea)
<p>02:59 * mids
<p>02:59 &lt;@nop&gt; Neo : please elaborate on that comment
<p>02:59 &lt; Banks&gt; Neo: I agree
<p>02:59 * nop doesn't quite understand yet
<p>03:00 &lt;@nop&gt; also - mids : anytime Website is topic have website/PR as one topic
<p>03:00 &lt;@nop&gt; because it is one in the same
<p>03:00 &lt;@mids&gt; nop: yup
<p>03:00 &lt;@nop&gt; ok
<p>03:00 &lt;@nop&gt; well, if ellison is willing
<p>03:00 &lt;@nop&gt; and tikk you are willing to offer advice
<p>03:00 &lt;@nop&gt; let's do this
<p>03:01 &lt; Neo&gt; re: PR. Like your comment above about the "media hacker" term. The dark "villianry" (sp?)
<p>03:01 &lt;@nop&gt; and anyone else willing to get the website to the optimal point then hop on and let's go for it
<p>03:01 &lt;@nop&gt; Neo: point seen - understood
<p>03:01 &lt; Neo&gt; image is not good for PR - Political PR and marketing for new users PR.
<p>03:01 &lt; Neo&gt; That is why people interested in saving money from people who try and take it away from
<p>03:01 &lt; Aster&gt; nop: you mean as in webmaster, or just finishing the job of the site (hop on comment)
<p>03:02 &lt; tikk&gt; i'm willing to help advise, sure.. i'm not sure if i'm +v here
<p>03:02 &lt; Neo&gt; them and use crypto, it is better for them to use crypto for freedom of speech uses. not to capitalize on
<p>03:02 &lt;@mids&gt; tikk: we hear you
<p>03:02 &lt;@nop&gt; aster that's debatable, lately, I've been the semi-webmaster
<p>03:02 &lt;@mids&gt; tikk: the chan isnt +m
<p>03:02 &lt;@nop&gt; aster
<p>03:02 &lt; Aster&gt; yup?
<p>03:02 &lt;@nop&gt; if you want to it's an open position once we get it up
<p>03:02 &lt; Neo&gt; how they are protecting assets. (nuff said, this is for another room/thread)
<p>03:02 &lt; Aster&gt; sure
<p>03:03 &lt;@nop&gt; I have a feeling this is going to be bigger than I can handle
<p>03:03 &lt;@mids&gt; ok
<p>03:03 &lt;@nop&gt; Neo : good point ;)
<p>03:03 * mids asks contact info from parties involved
<p>03:03 &lt;@mids&gt; and I'll notice you
<p>03:03 &lt;@nop&gt; and pubkeys
<p>03:03 &lt;@nop&gt; also
<p>03:03 &lt;@nop&gt; on a side note
<p>03:03 &lt;@nop&gt; everyone registered with trent
<p>03:03 &lt;@nop&gt; has anonymail access
<p>03:03 &lt;@nop&gt; user@iipmail.net
<p>03:04 &lt;@nop&gt; pgp compatible
<p>03:04 &lt;@nop&gt; somewhat
<p>03:04 &lt;@nop&gt; :)
<p>03:04 &lt;@nop&gt; it's like memoserv here
<p>03:04 &lt;@nop&gt; and is very useful
<p>03:04 &lt;@nop&gt; continue
<p>03:04 &lt;@nop&gt; off topic
<p>03:04 &lt;@mids&gt; ok
<p>03:04 &lt;@nop&gt; but needed to say
<p>03:04 &lt;@mids&gt; (just ask in #iip for more info)
<p>03:04 &lt;@nop&gt; yep
<p>03:05 &lt;@mids&gt; I'll contact the parties who offered their interest in the web/pr
<p>03:05 &lt;@mids&gt; lets move on
<p>03:05 &lt;@mids&gt; ) Documentation (codeshark, cohesion or mids)
<p>03:05 &lt;@mids&gt; cohesion isnt here
<p>03:05 &lt;@Chocolate&gt; can I stick something in real fast?
<p>03:05 &lt;@nop&gt; sure
<p>03:05 &lt;@mids&gt; ok
<p>03:05 &lt;@Chocolate&gt; going back to the whiteboard
<p>03:05 * mids scrolls up
<p>03:05 &lt; Banks&gt; That's what I'm always saying to my wife.
<p>03:05 &lt;@Chocolate&gt; I found one called "CSV" (if I remeber rigth)
<p>03:06 &lt;@Chocolate&gt; I'll find the url and send it to #iip
<p>03:06 &lt;@Chocolate&gt; .
<p>03:06 &lt;@mids&gt; nice
<p>03:06 &lt;@mids&gt; 6) Documentation
<p>03:06 &lt;@mids&gt; last week we had a lenghty talk
<p>03:06 &lt;@mids&gt; 3 ppl involved with documentation
<p>03:06 &lt;@mids&gt; all pretty busy
<p>03:07 &lt;@mids&gt; docu is really needed before release
<p>03:07 &lt;@mids&gt; there are 2 systems:
<p>03:07 &lt;@mids&gt; LaTeX or Docbook
<p>03:07 &lt;@mids&gt; we agreed on using LaTeX now
<p>03:07 &lt;@mids&gt; and moving to docbook in a later state
<p>03:08 &lt;@mids&gt; current latex is available on http://mids.student.utwente.nl/~mids/docdemo/
<p>03:08 &lt; Banks&gt; I was using HTML to PDF with HTMLDOC.
<p>03:08 &lt;@mids&gt; but it needs review
<p>03:08 &lt;@mids&gt; and also misses some items
<p>03:08 &lt;@mids&gt; (unix install)
<p>03:08 &lt;@mids&gt; probably anonymail can be added too it too as appendix
<p>03:08 &lt;@mids&gt; now, we heared that a few people have made additions to the manual
<p>03:09 &lt;@mids&gt; problem is that we dont know what version
<p>03:09 &lt;@mids&gt; so lets coordinate that
<p>03:09 &lt;@mids&gt; and put everything together
<p>03:09 &lt;@mids&gt; .
<p>03:09 &lt;@mids&gt; anybody something to add?
<p>03:10 &lt;@mids&gt; hm
<p>03:10 &lt;@mids&gt; we have 3 translations
<p>03:10 &lt; Banks&gt; Is codeshark still here?
<p>03:10 &lt;@mids&gt; spanish, french and dutch
<p>03:10 &lt;@mids&gt; so it becomes a bit heavy
<p>03:10 &lt;@mids&gt; we need documentation management.
<p>03:11 &lt;@mids&gt; any news about cohesion's status?
<p>03:11 &lt;@mids&gt; nop?
<p>03:11 &lt;@nop&gt; here
<p>03:11 &lt;@nop&gt; sorry
<p>03:11 &lt;@nop&gt; umm
<p>03:11 &lt;@nop&gt; he's around
<p>03:11 &lt;@nop&gt; on earlier today
<p>03:11 &lt;@mids&gt; but he is documentation manager not?
<p>03:11 &lt;@nop&gt; umm
<p>03:12 &lt;@nop&gt; yes
<p>03:12 &lt;@nop&gt; hold
<p>03:12 &lt;@nop&gt; just a sec
<p>03:12 &lt;@nop&gt; someone at work talking in my ear
<p>03:12 &lt;@mids&gt; :)
<p>03:12 &lt;@mids&gt; --- advertizement ---
<p>03:12 &lt; Banks&gt; Codeshark: Are you still here? Check your pm
<p>03:13 &lt;@mids&gt; Banks: if you talk to him, tell him to respond here too :)
<p>03:13 &lt; Banks&gt; codeshark has been idle 27mins 38secs
<p>03:13 &lt; Banks&gt; :)
<p>03:13 &lt;@mids&gt; darn, out of battery power
<p>03:13 &lt;@Chocolate&gt; lol
<p>03:14 &lt;@nop&gt; back
<p>03:14 &lt;@nop&gt; ok
<p>03:14 &lt;@mids&gt; ellison: we are now at the part 6) Documentation
<p>03:14 &lt;@nop&gt; cohesion is document manager
<p>03:14 &lt;@mids&gt; ok
<p>03:14 &lt;@nop&gt; and main technical writer
<p>03:14 &lt;@mids&gt; but he seems to be busy
<p>03:14 &lt;@nop&gt; but people have real life
<p>03:14 &lt; ellison&gt; thanks, catching up in the logs
<p>03:14 &lt;@nop&gt; and I think that is what is going on
<p>03:14 &lt;@nop&gt; so...
<p>03:14 &lt;@mids&gt; true
<p>03:14 &lt;@nop&gt; we should have a assistant doc manager
<p>03:14 &lt;@mids&gt; suggestion: put as much as possible in CVS, so more can work on it
<p>03:14 &lt;@nop&gt; so that this can continue
<p>03:15 &lt;@nop&gt; mids = you seem like you have a lot on plate
<p>03:15 &lt;@nop&gt; do you
<p>03:15 &lt;@nop&gt; or does it seem that way
<p>03:15 &lt;@nop&gt; with IIP that is
<p>03:15 &lt; Banks&gt; I can help but I'm not familiar with CVS
<p>03:15 &lt;@nop&gt; hold
<p>03:15 &lt;@mids&gt; nop: yup
<p>03:15 &lt;@nop&gt; banks
<p>03:15 &lt;@mids&gt; need to delegate
<p>03:15 &lt;@nop&gt; I'll get you doc on cvs
<p>03:15 &lt;@nop&gt; well chocolate - how are you lately ol' buddy ol pal
<p>03:16 &lt;@nop&gt; ok
<p>03:16 &lt;@mids&gt; I can do the assistent doc management
<p>03:16 &lt; Banks&gt; Does anyone want a copy of a PDF I churned out? Codeshark is busy right now.
<p>03:16 &lt;@mids&gt; but I am not going to write
<p>03:16 &lt;@mids&gt; I can put input into LaTex
<p>03:16 &lt;@mids&gt; and keep it central
<p>03:17 &lt;@mids&gt; it wont be much time for me
<p>03:17 &lt;@mids&gt; Banks: url
<p>03:17 &lt;@nop&gt; sure Banks
<p>03:17 &lt; Banks&gt; Where do you want me to email it?
<p>03:17 &lt;@nop&gt; mids = if you waill approve and put in cvs as a contrib
<p>03:17 &lt;@nop&gt; waill =will
<p>03:17 &lt;@nop&gt; aster
<p>03:17 &lt;@mids&gt; nop: what? my latex of Banks pdf?
<p>03:17 &lt;@nop&gt; I believe so
<p>03:18 &lt;@nop&gt; also
<p>03:18 &lt; Aster&gt; nop: hum?
<p>03:18 &lt;@nop&gt; ellison wrote a good end users doc on dc beta
<p>03:18 &lt;@nop&gt; much appreciated
<p>03:18 &lt;@nop&gt; and could be very usable in future
<p>03:18 &lt;@nop&gt; for general IIP
<p>03:18 &lt;@nop&gt; on website
<p>03:18 &lt;@nop&gt; here
<p>03:18 &lt;@nop&gt; a getting started
<p>03:18 &lt;@nop&gt; type thing
<p>03:18 &lt; Banks&gt; mids: Do you want me to email it to mids@invisiblenet.net?
<p>03:18 &lt;@mids&gt; Banks: please
<p>03:19 &lt; Banks&gt; ok
<p>03:19 &lt;@nop&gt; aster - mind if I delegate you a webmaster once site goes up
<p>03:19 &lt; Aster&gt; nop: dont mind at all :)
<p>03:19 &lt; Banks&gt; mids: Sent.
<p>03:19 &lt; ellison&gt; nop: i can clean it up and re-purpose it for the site
<p>03:19 &lt;@nop&gt; great
<p>03:20 &lt;@nop&gt; ellison - at a later point in time
<p>03:20 &lt;@nop&gt; we would like to discuss web dev with you
<p>03:20 &lt; ellison&gt; ok
<p>03:20 &lt; Banks&gt; mids: Tell me what you think.
<p>03:20 &lt;@mids&gt; Banks: will do once I got it
<p>03:21 &lt;@nop&gt; docs - anymore comments on docs
<p>03:21 &lt;@nop&gt; or questions
<p>03:21 &lt; Banks&gt; mids: Ok, I can send the HTML with BMPs later too.
<p>03:21 &lt; Banks&gt; I've got a question.
<p>03:21 &lt;@mids&gt; Banks: I'll contact you and put it central
<p>03:21 &lt;@nop&gt; yes sir
<p>03:21 &lt; Banks&gt; The whitepaper says "here is a "steady" streaming protocol, for those who can afford the bandwidth, for constant traffic, (which protects you from traffic analysis of any form, but will cause a 500 millisecond lag)."
<p>03:22 &lt; Banks&gt; And then "[name of this parameter?]"
<p>03:22 &lt; Banks&gt; What is the name of the parameter? :)
<p>03:22 &lt;@mids&gt; euh
<p>03:22 &lt;@mids&gt; too detailed
<p>03:22 &lt;@mids&gt; this is a public meeting :)
<p>03:22 &lt;@Chocolate&gt; isnt that offtopic?
<p>03:22 &lt; Banks&gt; My bad.
<p>03:22 &lt;@mids&gt; I got the contact info from those with documentation
<p>03:23 &lt;@mids&gt; I will gather it
<p>03:23 &lt;@mids&gt; and put it central
<p>03:23 &lt;@mids&gt; then find editors to edit
<p>03:23 &lt;@mids&gt; dont fear LaTeX or CVS
<p>03:23 &lt;@mids&gt; you'll live
<p>03:23 &lt;@mids&gt; :)
<p>03:23 &lt;@mids&gt; .
<p>03:23 &lt; Banks&gt; Reading up on LaTeX was a nightmare :)
<p>03:23 &lt;@Chocolate&gt; ok so is Documentation finished?
<p>03:24 &lt;@mids&gt; Chocolate: lol
<p>03:24 &lt;@mids&gt; Chocolate: well, the subject here is
<p>03:24 &lt;@mids&gt; I think.
<p>03:24 * Chocolate kicks mids
<p>03:24 &lt;@Chocolate&gt; thats what I ment
<p>03:24 &lt;@mids&gt; oh :)
<p>03:24 &lt;@mids&gt; before we go to a free-for-all question round
<p>03:24 &lt;@Chocolate&gt; I ment "is agenda item 6 finished"
<p>03:25 &lt;@mids&gt; lets do 1 more public thing
<p>03:25 &lt;@mids&gt; about the meeting time
<p>03:25 &lt;@mids&gt; Quick jump to topic 9 Next meeting:
<p>03:25 -!- Chocolate changed the topic of #iip-dev to: Meeting info, agenda, livelog (in case you are late): http://mids.student.utwente.nl/~mids/iip/ | current topic: meeting time
<p>03:25 &lt;@mids&gt; statement: current time too late for Europeans, better time?
<p>03:25 &lt;@mids&gt; codeshark and me would prefer 2 hours earlier
<p>03:26 &lt;@mids&gt; (its 3:30 am here now)
<p>03:26 &lt; Aster&gt; ouch
<p>03:26 &lt;@mids&gt; Kronos-X: we are now almost finished
<p>03:27 &lt;@mids&gt; Kronos-X: trying to settle a better meeting time
<p>03:27 &lt; Kronos-X&gt; I'm unpredictable, so I'm flexible by default.
<p>03:27 &lt; Kronos-X&gt; :)
<p>03:27 &lt; MiB&gt; 3:38 over here, 3 to 4 hours earlier would be much more humane for me :)
<p>03:27 &lt;@mids&gt; nop: what about 2 hours earlier? choc? banks? neo?
<p>03:28 &lt;@Chocolate&gt; IIRC 0000 is the earlyst nop can make it
<p>03:28 &lt; Neo&gt; anytime is cool with me, its the others to ask. :)
<p>03:28 &lt;@Chocolate&gt; 2200 tuesday should be ok for me
<p>03:29 &lt; Banks&gt; Fine by me
<p>03:29 &lt;@Chocolate&gt; it's important that nop and/or userx can make the meetings though
<p>03:29 &lt; Aster&gt; uh, whats thaht eastern?
<p>03:29 &lt;@Chocolate&gt; no, UTC
<p>03:29 &lt; Aster&gt; what would be eastern then? ( i dont know how this time stuff works :)
<p>03:29 &lt;@mids&gt; http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/
<p>03:29 &lt;@Chocolate&gt; EDT is -5
<p>03:29 &lt; Aster&gt; k
<p>03:29 &lt; ellison&gt; oooh, an ISO compliant meeting!
<p>03:29 &lt; Kronos-X&gt; Heh
<p>03:30 &lt;@mids&gt; nop seems to be busy
<p>03:30 &lt;@mids&gt; he has a veto on the time imho
<p>03:30 &lt;@Chocolate&gt; same
<p>03:30 &lt;@mids&gt; those who showed up didnt complain
<p>03:30 &lt;@mids&gt; so proposal is 2 hours earlier
<p>03:30 &lt;@mids&gt; end of meeting time?
<p>03:30 &lt;@mids&gt; .
<p>03:31 &lt;@mids&gt; topic 7/8 Free 4 all Question round!!!
<p>03:31 &lt;@mids&gt; sorry for cutting you all off earlier
<p>03:31 &lt;@mids&gt; take revenge now
<p>03:31 &lt;@Chocolate&gt; lol
<p>03:31 &lt;@nop&gt; sorry
<p>03:31 &lt;@nop&gt; back
<p>03:31 &lt;@mids&gt; nop: 2 hours earlier meeting okay?
<p>03:31 &lt;@nop&gt; ooh
<p>03:31 &lt;@nop&gt; well, I'm in prime of working time
<p>03:31 &lt;@mids&gt; be honest
<p>03:32 &lt;@nop&gt; hmm
<p>03:32 &lt;@nop&gt; can we shoot for an hour earlier
<p>03:33 &lt;@nop&gt; I can get in trouble for chatting at work at that time in the day
<p>03:33 &lt;@mids&gt; yup
<p>03:33 &lt;@mids&gt; then we will try that
<p>03:34 &lt;@nop&gt; ok
<p>03:34 &lt;@mids&gt; okay... questions!
<p>03:34 -!- mids changed the topic of #iip-dev to: Meeting info, agenda, livelog (in case you are late): http://mids.student.utwente.nl/~mids/iip/ | current topic: Questions
<p>03:34 &lt; Kronos-X&gt; mids: Where are the .debs?
<p>03:34 &lt; Kronos-X&gt; ;)
<p>03:34 &lt;@nop&gt; teach us old wise one
<p>03:34 &lt;@nop&gt; and we will make .debs
<p>03:34 &lt;@nop&gt; :)
<p>03:34 &lt;@mids&gt; Kronos-X: you would make them!
<p>03:34 &lt; Kronos-X&gt; Heh.
<p>03:35 &lt; Kronos-X&gt; Sorry, I'm just here to bump the noise-to-signal ratio.,
<p>03:35 &lt; Kronos-X&gt; Let me pass the mic on to someone with a real question.
<p>03:35 &lt;@nop&gt; hehe
<p>03:35 &lt;@mids&gt; ptsc: any Q about the protocol?
<p>03:35 &lt; Banks&gt; ptsc has been idle 53mins 56secs :)
<p>03:36 &lt;@mids&gt; okay, banks' PDF is online on http://mids.student.utwente.nl/~mids/iip/meeting2/
<p>03:36 &lt;@nop&gt; did we discuss roadmaps
<p>03:36 &lt;@nop&gt; etdd
<p>03:36 &lt;@mids&gt; it looks cool already
<p>03:36 &lt;@nop&gt; etc
<p>03:37 &lt;@mids&gt; nop: only that rc2 depends heavily on docs
<p>03:38 &lt;@nop&gt; ok
<p>03:39 &lt;@nop&gt; this pdf kicks ass
<p>03:39 &lt;@nop&gt; just need the invisible irc logo in there
<p>03:40 &lt;@nop&gt; and you're done eh:)
<p>03:40 &lt;@mids&gt; I love the quotes and the screenshots
<p>03:40 &lt; Banks&gt; Casper?
<p>03:40 &lt;@mids&gt; even a FAQ!
<p>03:40 &lt;@mids&gt; Banks: why didn't you tell us before?
<p>03:40 &lt; Banks&gt; I spoke to codeshark but he didn't really say anything.
<p>03:42 &lt;@nop&gt; no
<p>03:42 &lt;@nop&gt; take the one off the site
<p>03:42 &lt;@nop&gt; for now
<p>03:42 &lt; Banks&gt; ok
<p>03:43 &lt;@mids&gt; I am going to sleep
<p>03:43 &lt;@mids&gt; logger will keep running for a while
<p>03:43 &lt;@mids&gt; thanks everybody for listening
<p>03:43 &lt; Neo&gt; l8r mids
<p>03:43 &lt;@mids&gt; night
<p>03:44 &lt;@Chocolate&gt; night
<p>03:44 &lt; Banks&gt; night mids
<p>03:44 &lt; Kronos-X&gt; Night, mids.
<p>03:44 &lt; Aster&gt; nite
<p>03:45 &lt; ellison&gt; l8r mids
<p>03:46 &lt; Banks&gt; Is there a logo in the works?
<p>03:48 &lt;@nop&gt; umm yeah
<p>03:48 &lt;@nop&gt; also
<p>03:48 &lt;@nop&gt; we want to have
<p>03:48 &lt;@nop&gt; pwered by InvisibleNet
<p>03:48 &lt;@nop&gt; and IIP now logo's
<p>03:49 &lt; Banks&gt; That's a good idea.
<p>03:49 &lt;@nop&gt; banks
<p>03:49 &lt; Banks&gt; It's hard to think of a logo that conveys IRC invisibility :)
<p>03:49 &lt;@nop&gt; excellent pdf
<p>03:49 &lt; Aster&gt; how long till these logos exist
<p>03:49 &lt;@nop&gt; we will definitely use it for distro with IIP
<p>03:49 &lt; Banks&gt; Cheers
<p>03:49 &lt;@nop&gt; well
<p>03:49 &lt;@nop&gt; I have some drafts of powered by invisiblenet
<p>03:49 &lt;@nop&gt; but you know
<p>03:49 &lt;@nop&gt; the goal of IRC is one thing
<p>03:49 &lt;@nop&gt; but in the future
<p>03:49 &lt;@nop&gt; Invisible Internet
<p>03:49 &lt;@nop&gt; so...
<p>03:50 &lt; Banks&gt; True
<p>03:50 &lt;@nop&gt; IRC Is main project
<p>03:50 &lt;@nop&gt; but it's so modular
<p>03:50 &lt;@nop&gt; that rumors might start
<p>03:50 &lt; Banks&gt; Logos with heads or faces seem to do pretty well. Redhat, Napster, etc.
<p>03:50 &lt; Banks&gt; Rumors?
<p>03:51 &lt; Aster&gt; banks: but do we want to copy the other guys, or come up with something unique, while still remeberable
<p>03:51 &lt;@nop&gt; it's a joke, basically it will be so modular anything can be put in as a protocol to anonymize
<p>03:51 &lt; Banks&gt; nop: I see :)
<p>03:52 &lt; Banks&gt; Aster: A head or face can still be unique. I think they're better than geometric patterns, etc.
<p>03:52 &lt; Aster&gt; yeah
<p>03:53 &lt;@Chocolate&gt; anyone with a camelion as a maskot?
<p>03:54 &lt;@nop&gt; geiko
<p>03:54 &lt;@nop&gt; insurance
<p>03:54 &lt;@nop&gt; :)
<p>03:54 &lt;@Chocolate&gt; damn
<p>03:54 &lt;@Chocolate&gt; the fuckers
<p>03:54 &lt;@Chocolate&gt; they're a terible companie
<p>03:55 &lt; Banks&gt; GameSpy has taken the Invisible Man thing
<p>03:55 &lt;@nop&gt; yes
<p>03:55 &lt;@nop&gt; they don't even do good at getting cheap insurance
<p>03:55 &lt;@Chocolate&gt; maby a klingon bird of prey?
<p>03:55 &lt; Banks&gt; :)
<p>03:55 &lt;@Chocolate&gt; cloaked you know ;)
<p>03:56 &lt; Banks&gt; Maybe footprints that disappear across the text.
<p>03:57 &lt;@nop&gt; hehe
<p>03:57 &lt;@nop&gt; ok, meeting is officially over
<p>03:57 &lt;@nop&gt; just to let you know
<p>03:58 &lt;@nop&gt; it's free for all
<p>03:58 &lt;@nop&gt; anyone have a good slogan for IIP
<p>03:58 &lt;@mids&gt; IIP - it keeps you awake
<p>03:58 &lt;@nop&gt; hehe
<p>03:58 &lt; Neo&gt; IIP - "Fuck the State"
<p>03:59 &lt;@nop&gt; umm
<p>03:59 &lt; Neo&gt; oh... sorry...
<p>03:59 &lt;@nop&gt; no
<p>03:59 &lt; Neo&gt; :) lol
<p>03:59 &lt; Banks&gt; I love that one Neo :)
<p>03:59 &lt; Banks&gt; IIP - "Stuttering Urinators."
<p>03:59 &lt;@nop&gt; hah
<p>03:59 &lt;@nop&gt; haha
<p>04:00 &lt;@Chocolate&gt; IIP - where animals talk
<p>04:00 &lt; Banks&gt; Heh heh
<p>04:01 &lt; Banks&gt; Maybe a Dog logo, you know, on the internet no one knows that you're a dog.
<p>04:01 &lt; Banks&gt; An invisible dog! :)
<p>04:01 &lt; ellison&gt; "and doubly-so with IIP"
<p>04:02 &lt; Banks&gt; IIP - "Where AOLers can be free from prejudice"
<p>04:03 &lt;@nop&gt; haha
<p>04:05 &lt;@Chocolate&gt; IIP - Talk to yourself without people laughing at you
<p>04:05 &lt; Banks&gt; Heh heh
<p>04:10 -!- CwZ|away is now known as Somedude
<p>04:11 &lt;@Chocolate&gt; hey Somedude
<p>04:11 &lt; Somedude&gt; hey Chocolate
<p>04:11 &lt; Somedude&gt; how goes?
<p>04:11 &lt;@Chocolate&gt; I'm ok, you?
<p>04:11 &lt; Somedude&gt; fine fine
<p>04:12 &lt; Banks&gt; Heh heh
<p>04:13 * Banks pm's Somedude, "We all hate Chocolate".
<p>04:13 &lt; Somedude&gt; yea I do too
<p>04:13 &lt;@nop&gt; hey guyes
<p>04:14 &lt;@nop&gt; email me sites you like
<p>04:14 &lt;@nop&gt; for examples of styles for IIP
<p>04:14 &lt; Banks&gt; Hmmm.
<p>04:14 &lt;@nop&gt; 0x90@invisiblenet.net
<p>04:17 &lt; Mole&gt; Ok, heres the deal: I am a p2p researcher and has al ot of nice algorithms that I have invented and tested for distributed systems.
<p>04:17 &lt; Mole&gt; I am currently looking for some project with which I should share my knowledge.
<p>04:18 &lt; Banks&gt; You've come to the right place :)
<p>04:18 &lt; Banks&gt; nop is your man.
<p>04:18 &lt; Mole&gt; I just found iip some minutes ago.
<p>04:18 &lt; Mole&gt; I guy in #freenet on openprojects.net recommend you.
<p>04:18 &lt; Mole&gt; Well, heres what i got so far:
<p>04:19 &lt;@nop&gt; k
<p>04:19 &lt; Mole&gt; * All my algorithms are completely distributed and is not dependant on any central server.
<p>04:20 &lt; Mole&gt; * An algorithm to keep together a network with anything from 2 to 20000000000 nodes. :))
<p>04:20 &lt; Mole&gt; * That network never gets netsplits and cant be crashed as far as I know.
<p>04:20 &lt;@nop&gt; mole
<p>04:20 &lt;@nop&gt; please email iip@invisiblenet.net
<p>04:20 &lt;@nop&gt; with it
<p>04:20 &lt;@nop&gt; along with your pubkey
<p>04:21 &lt; Mole&gt; * Algorithm to announce subnets/services on the main network. (Aad subnets on the subnets.)
<p>04:21 &lt;@nop&gt; can it remain anonymous
<p>04:21 &lt;@nop&gt; and help not give too much info
<p>04:21 &lt; Mole&gt; * Algorithms to collect statistics like number of nodes, average and median values et.c.
<p>04:22 &lt; Mole&gt; * Algorithms to keep secret hwhat different nodes does on the network and what services they are suppliyng.
<p>04:22 &lt;@nop&gt; why Mole for a nick
<p>04:22 &lt; Mole&gt; And I am curently I am working to solve the distributed secure efficient database. :)
<p>04:22 &lt;@nop&gt; kewl
<p>04:22 &lt; Mole&gt; Well, Mole has been my Internet nick since 1991.
<p>04:23 &lt; Mole&gt; I myself is not a very secret person. :)
<p>04:23 &lt; ellison&gt; Mole: you familiar with quorum based distributed data systems?
<p>04:23 &lt; Mole&gt; But I like to supply secresy to people. :)
<p>04:23 &lt;@nop&gt; had a feeling those algo's are secret
<p>04:23 &lt;@nop&gt; :)
<p>04:23 &lt; Mole&gt; nope, not quorum.
<p>04:23 &lt;@nop&gt; quorum or quantum
<p>04:23 &lt; ellison&gt; lotsa cool work being done there
<p>04:24 &lt; ellison&gt; quorum
<p>04:24 &lt; Mole&gt; Kind of been into my research and simulations to much so I am currently taking a long break to check what other projects there are out there.
<p>04:24 &lt; ellison&gt; it's basically a distributed databases structure where many entities can have read/write access, but the system is protected from attempts at corruption by any of those entities
<p>04:24 &lt; ellison&gt; really useful for certain types of data structures/purposes
<p>04:25 &lt; ellison&gt; http://citeseer.nj.nec.com/malkhi97byzantine.html
<p>04:25 &lt;@Chocolate&gt; Mole: I recomened you here :)
<p>04:25 &lt;@Chocolate&gt; got a spybot going in #freenet here
<p>04:26 &lt; Mole&gt; Ok, Ill check quorum out to.
<p>04:26 &lt; Mole&gt; Well, now I have lots of questions about IIP to see what good my algorithms and knowledge might do for you. :)
<p>04:27 &lt; Mole&gt; First of all, is there any documentation of how IIP works anywhere?
<p>04:28 &lt;@nop&gt; yes
<p>04:28 &lt;@nop&gt; banks
<p>04:28 &lt;@nop&gt; where's that link
<p>04:28 &lt; Banks&gt; Wait one
<p>04:28 &lt; Banks&gt; http://mids.student.utwente.nl/~mids/iip/meeting2/iipdoc.pdf
<p>04:29 &lt; Banks&gt; Mole: You'll probably want to read mainly chapter 1 and chapter 9.
<p>04:29 &lt; Mole&gt; Ok, downloading it.
<p>04:32 &lt;@nop&gt; I have to run
<p>04:32 &lt;@nop&gt; see ya guys later
<p>04:33 &lt; Banks&gt; Seeya nop
<p>04:33 &lt; Mole&gt; Hey you gues are really friendly. Lots of chats in all windows and private cahts too.
<p>04:33 &lt; Banks&gt; :)
<p>04:36 &lt; Mole&gt; I'll read all the stuff you all recommended and talk to you some other day when I know more. :)
<p>04:37 &lt; Banks&gt; That'd be great :)
<p>06:07 &lt; Mole&gt; Ahh, I just browsed through iipdoc.pdf and now I think I understand how IIP works.
<p>06:08 &lt; Mole&gt; If I got it right there are allmost normal IRC-servers in the "backbone" ?
<p>06:12 &lt; Mole&gt; And you are planning on making verions 2.0 fully decentralised.
<p>06:12 &lt; Mole&gt; Have any design work or algorithm research been done on the decentrailsed structure for verison 2.0 ?
<p>06:20 &lt;@Chocolate&gt; some
<p>06:20 &lt;@Chocolate&gt; still r&d
<p>06:21 &lt; Mole&gt; Ok, I think I can be of use to you then. :)
<p>06:36 &lt; Aster&gt; k
<p>06:37 &lt; Mole&gt; Ok, well here are my thoughts on anonymous DCC chat and file send:
<p>06:38 &lt; Mole&gt; Add a socks-proxy to the "IIP-client".
<p>06:38 &lt; Mole&gt; Tell the users to configure their IRC client to run through the IIP-socks-proxy.
<p>06:39 &lt; Mole&gt; That means all the DCC connections will go to the IIP-socks-proxy.
<p>06:40 &lt; Mole&gt; The when the IRC-client (like mIRC) wants to connect to mole.anon.iip the proxy sends that connection through some of the other
<p>06:40 &lt; Mole&gt; nodes in the network until it finally reaches the node you want to DCC.
<p>06:41 &lt; Mole&gt; Thus you got an anonoymous DCC!
<p>06:41 &lt; Mole&gt; Waht do you think?
<p>06:41 &lt; Aster&gt; dcc involves files right (im not a big irc kid)
<p>06:42 &lt; Mole&gt; Yep.
<p>06:43 &lt; Mole&gt; So it will create much network load for the nodes that the connection "bounces" through.
<p>06:43 &lt; Aster&gt; yeah...the only problem i see is that now, when you start sending your file, its gotta go through all the other servers, causing lots of traffic
<p>06:43 &lt; Aster&gt; yeah
<p>06:44 &lt; Mole&gt; But since allmost all nodes should be assisting the distributed net that network load could be spread pretty equally.
<p>06:44 &lt; Mole&gt; But it will of course be slower "downloads" than over unsafe DCC.
<p>06:45 &lt; Mole&gt; Ahh, network split?
<p>06:46 &lt; Aster&gt; sorry, i missed your last few messages
<p>06:46 &lt; Mole&gt; Repating: But since allmost all nodes should be assisting the distributed net that network load could be spread pretty equally.
<p>06:46 &lt; Mole&gt; Repeating: But it will of course be slower "downloads" than over unsafe DCC.
<p>06:46 &lt; Aster&gt; yeah
<p>06:47 &lt; Mole&gt; So it has to be discussed if it should be implented.
<p>06:47 &lt; Aster&gt; not really though about the spread out network load...each node still has to relay, lets say, 10mB no matter how many other nodes are there
<p>06:47 &lt; Mole&gt; But atleast it is very simple to implement if you decide to use it.
<p>06:47 &lt; Aster&gt; yeah
<p>06:48 &lt; Mole&gt; Not with my algorithms. :) Then each node only has to relay about 500 byte / second.
<p>06:48 &lt; Mole&gt; Excpet for the DCC data ofcourse....
<p>06:49 &lt; Mole&gt; Lets go to my next simple algorithm:
<p>06:49 &lt; Mole&gt; To create network efficient channel communications you do like this:
<p>06:50 &lt; Mole&gt; Provided that each user has his own local IIP-node:
<p>06:51 &lt; Mole&gt; That is, all the data we are creating while chatting only travles among the nodes taking part in the chat.
<p>06:51 &lt; Mole&gt; Thus not loading the rest of the network.
<p>06:51 &lt; Mole&gt; We have to ad one thing though for anonymity:
<p>06:51 &lt; Mole&gt; The nodes actually taking part in the mini network for the channel
<p>06:52 &lt; Mole&gt; is only front ends for the real chatters.
<p>06:52 &lt; Mole&gt; That is each node connects to a front end (perhaps in two or more levels) and it is the front end that joins the channel-network.
<p>06:53 &lt; Mole&gt; That save a lot of communication bandwidth!
<p>06:53 &lt; Mole&gt; and also makes the network much more robust.
<p>06:53 &lt; Aster&gt; hum
<p>06:54 &lt; Aster&gt; interesting
<p>06:55 &lt; Aster&gt; brb....i need to lay down for a bit..back hurting
<p>06:55 &lt; Mole&gt; chatter node &lt;-&gt; intermediate &lt;-&gt; frontend &lt;- channelnet -
<p>06:55 &lt; Mole&gt; &gt; frontend &lt;-&gt; intermediate &lt;-&gt; chatter node
<p>06:56 &lt; Mole&gt; Any other of you guys have any comments?
<p>07:18 -!- Zwollywood is now known as Zwolly
<p>07:21 &lt; Mole&gt; Hi Zwolly
<p>07:22 &lt; Zwolly&gt; hello
<p>07:22 &lt; Zwolly&gt; one moment
<p>07:23 &lt; Mole&gt; Are you working with IIP-development?
<p>07:24 &lt; Zwolly&gt; no i am just an user
<p>07:24 &lt; Zwolly&gt; i think i am to late for the meetibg
<p>07:25 &lt; Mole&gt; Ahh, me to.
<p>07:25 &lt; Mole&gt; Yep, the meeting was hours ago.
<p>07:25 &lt; Mole&gt; I am thinking on joining the development team.
<p>07:25 &lt; Zwolly&gt; http://mids.student.utwente.nl/~mids/iip there is some info there
<p>07:25 &lt; Zwolly&gt; great
<p>07:25 &lt; Zwolly&gt; if you got the skills and they can use some one
<p>07:26 &lt; Mole&gt; Yep, I got the skills. Researched decentralised p2p systmes since 1997...
<p>07:27 &lt; Mole&gt; Thanks for the reminder of the URL.
<p>07:28 &lt; Mole&gt; I checked it again and there were more stuff there then I noticed when I took a first look some hours ago.
<p>07:28 &lt; Zwolly&gt; only thing i know of making programs is how to make them crash hehe
<p>07:28 &lt; Mole&gt; Well, sounds like you could bee a good beta-tester then?
<p>07:29 &lt; Zwolly&gt; yeh maybe
<p>07:29 &lt; Zwolly&gt; i am busy on an dutch translation of the manual so maybe i can help a little with that
<p>07:29 &lt; Mole&gt; I find it funny that they have a command to add your website to your ncik.
<p>07:30 &lt; Mole&gt; Just read about the extra commands IIP has.
<p>07:30 &lt; Zwolly&gt; yeh that is a nice option
<p>07:32 &lt; Mole&gt; Oops, I looked in the "livelog.txt" on the site IIP site.
<p>07:34 &lt; Mole&gt; Whoops, got disconnected.
<p>07:35 &lt; Zwolly&gt; yeh i see
<p>07:35 &lt; Zwolly&gt; also an point on agenda
<p>07:35 &lt; Zwolly&gt; more stable connections
<p>07:36 &lt; Mole&gt; hehe, yep.
<p>07:37 &lt; Mole&gt; It is possble to build networks that use multiple tcp-connections to make things very robust.
<p>07:38 &lt; Zwolly&gt; yeh i am reading about that but need to see it first before i believe it
<p>07:38 &lt; nop&gt; dang
<p>07:38 &lt; nop&gt; meeting still going?
<p>07:38 &lt; Zwolly&gt; now reading log file
<p>07:38 &lt; Zwolly&gt; no
<p>07:39 &lt; Zwolly&gt; just some people talking and reading what they have missed
<p>07:39 * mids kicks everybody out
<p>07:40 &lt;@mids&gt; MEETING IS OVER
<p>--- Log closed Wed May 29 07:40:24 2002
</div>
{% endblock %}