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2008-01-31 20:38:37 +00:00

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{% extends "_layout.html" %}
{% block title %}Meeting 47{% endblock %}
{% block content %}<div class="irclog">
<p>--&gt; You are now talking on #iip-dev</p>
<p>--- Topic for #iip-dev is IIP Meeting - logfiles:</p>
<p> http://wiki.invisiblenet.net/?Meetings - http://www.invisiblenet.net/research/</p>
<p>&lt;al-jebr&gt; it's 21:13</p>
<p>&lt;-- wilde has quit (Ping timeout)</p>
<p>--- Trent@anon.iip gives channel operator status to UserX</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; ok</p>
<p>&lt;qriff&gt; !time</p>
<p>&lt;Ambience&gt; al-jebr: 00:21 here</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; I believe everyone has settled</p>
<p>&lt;hezekiah&gt; Let's go. :)</p>
<p>&lt;jrand0m&gt; 11:06 here</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; let's start</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; anyone get my agenda</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; so they can play it back</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; I forgot the order</p>
<p>&lt;-- leenookx has quit (Ping timeout)</p>
<p>&lt;Ambience&gt; my clock is 15 minutes ahead :)</p>
<p>--&gt; hifi (~MetroPipe@anon.iip) has joined #iip-dev</p>
<p>&lt;hezekiah&gt; &lt;nop&gt; on the agenda</p>
<p>&lt;hezekiah&gt; &lt;nop&gt; 1) Welcome</p>
<p>&lt;hezekiah&gt; &lt;nop&gt; 2)Our Goodbyes</p>
<p>&lt;hezekiah&gt; &lt;nop&gt; 3)IIP development now</p>
<p>&lt;hezekiah&gt; &lt;nop&gt; 4) IIP development restructuring proposal</p>
<p>&lt;qriff&gt; actually its xx:13 everywhere...</p>
<p>&lt;hezekiah&gt; &lt;nop&gt; 5) Recruiting for services to aid with IIP</p>
<p>&lt;hezekiah&gt; &lt;-- Delly has quit (Ping timeout)</p>
<p>&lt;hezekiah&gt; &lt;nop&gt; 6) comments suggestions and people who want to help</p>
<p>&lt;mids&gt; 23:05:28 &lt;@nop&gt; 1) Welcome</p>
<p>&lt;mids&gt; 23:05:38 &lt;@nop&gt; 2)Our Goodbyes</p>
<p>&lt;mids&gt; 23:05:43 &lt;@nop&gt; 3)IIP development now</p>
<p>&lt;mids&gt; 23:05:56 &lt;@nop&gt; 4) IIP development restructuring proposal</p>
<p>&lt;mids&gt; 23:06:16 &lt;@nop&gt; 5) Recruiting for services to aid with IIP</p>
<p>&lt;mids&gt; 23:06:53 &lt;@nop&gt; 6) comments suggestions and people who want to help</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; wow, flood in here ;)</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; pl</p>
<p>&lt;LeerokLacerta&gt; Out goodbyes?</p>
<p>&lt;hezekiah&gt; lol</p>
<p>&lt;hifi&gt; TROLLS !!!</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; Ok, welcome all</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; let's settle down now :)</p>
<p>&lt;hifi&gt; .</p>
<p>&lt;Ambience&gt; settled</p>
<p>--&gt; wilde (~anon@anon.iip) has joined #iip-dev</p>
<p>&lt;hifi&gt; settled</p>
<p>&lt;al-jebr&gt; anyone logging?</p>
<p>--&gt; thecrypto (~thecrypto@anon.iip) has joined #iip-dev</p>
<p>&lt;hezekiah&gt; I am (sort of).</p>
<p>&lt;luckypunk&gt; mids should be.</p>
<p>* jrand0m logs at all times</p>
<p>&lt;al-jebr&gt; let's go!</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; ok</p>
<p>&lt;hezekiah&gt; nop: Agenda item number 2?</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; Our goodbyes</p>
<p>&lt;LeerokLacerta&gt; Bye!</p>
<p>&lt;thecrypto&gt; where is the livelog?</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; Ok, mids has come to a point where he is moving to other projects</p>
<p>--&gt; Phiberoptika (~none@anon.iip) has joined #iip-dev</p>
<p>&lt;mids&gt; After having worked for IIP for more than I year now, I have decided to</p>
<p> resign as IIP developer.</p>
<p>&lt;LeerokLacerta&gt; Awww.</p>
<p>&lt;mids&gt; It has been fun and an educative experience</p>
<p>&lt;mids&gt; but it is time to move on, refresh the spirit and shuffle the cards.</p>
<p>&lt;Rain&gt; Will you still be online/around?</p>
<p>&lt;mids&gt; I'll keep running Trent as long as needed and possible.</p>
<p>&lt;mids&gt; Yes, I do plan to stay around as user</p>
<p>--&gt; ntk (~blob@anon.iip) has joined #iip-dev</p>
<p>* nop is in the corner sobbing</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; oh, ah hem</p>
<p>&lt;jrand0m&gt; many thanks mids, iip w/out trent would be a pita</p>
<p>&lt;LeerokLacerta&gt; It's so sad.</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; yes</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; thank you mids for all your workup</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; work</p>
<p>&lt;mids&gt; Although I'll be off on vacation soon :)</p>
<p>&lt;mids&gt; .</p>
<p>--- mids removes channel operator status from mids</p>
<p>&lt;luckypunk&gt; :D</p>
<p>&lt;luckypunk&gt; Seem's like you've done a great job. :)</p>
<p>&lt;Rain&gt; ..how symbolic..</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; we love you mids!!!</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; you hear that</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; that was my window opening</p>
<p>&lt;thecrypto&gt; we all do!</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; fan base out there</p>
<p>--&gt; w (~w@anon.iip) has joined #iip-dev</p>
<p>--- nop is now known as we</p>
<p>&lt;luckypunk&gt; lol, yep.</p>
<p>&lt;luckypunk&gt; :D</p>
<p>* we love you mids</p>
<p>&lt;Rain&gt; Go mids go!</p>
<p>&lt;jrand0m&gt; rofl</p>
<p>--&gt; leenookx (~leenookx@anon.iip) has joined #iip-dev</p>
<p>--- LeerokLacerta has changed the topic to: IIP Meeting - logfiles:</p>
<p> http://wiki.invisiblenet.net/?Meetings - http://www.invisiblenet.net/research/</p>
<p> | We love you mids!</p>
<p>&lt;Rain&gt; weeeeee are the chaaaampins, my frieeeennnndd...</p>
<p>&lt;Neo&gt; yes mids, thanks for all your input, collaboration and hard work in code</p>
<p> and doing general developer things for IIP.</p>
<p>--- we is now known as nop</p>
<p>* mids bows</p>
<p>* Ehud stands up and gives a standing ovation to the commitment, perseverence,</p>
<p> effort, and good hard code that mids has given the project.</p>
<p>&lt;hifi&gt; yeah mids take your toys and go to tigertown lol</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; and don't forget the PR and web management</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; he's been a vital aspect to IIP</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; getting it this far would have been hard without his work</p>
<p>--&gt; ChZEROHag (hag@anon.iip) has joined #iip-dev</p>
<p>&lt;hifi&gt; hifi bitches with mids over trolling issue</p>
<p>&lt;-- hezekiah has quit (Ping timeout)</p>
<p>&lt;mids&gt; heh hifi</p>
<p>--&gt; hezekiah (~hezekiah@anon.iip) has joined #iip-dev</p>
<p>--- Trent@anon.iip gives channel operator status to hezekiah</p>
<p>&lt;hezekiah&gt; Back. :)</p>
<p>&lt;luckypunk&gt; Yay.</p>
<p>&lt;hezekiah&gt; (And in case anyone doubted, Hezekiah == Ehud.)</p>
<p>&lt;hifi&gt; i never used frucking trent and don't know what mids did . i only troll .</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; obviously your hezekiah@anon.iip gave it away</p>
<p>&lt;-- Ehud has quit (Ping timeout)</p>
<p>&lt;hezekiah&gt; Ugh</p>
<p>&lt;hezekiah&gt; Item number 3?</p>
<p>&lt;hezekiah&gt; (If we're all done sobbing yet ...)</p>
<p>&lt;hifi&gt; and i never was pingouted in my life . I am the most disciplined user of</p>
<p> IIP .</p>
<p>&lt;mids&gt; 3)IIP development now</p>
<p>&lt;luckypunk&gt; heh</p>
<p>&lt;luckypunk&gt; Ok everyone! Shhh. Back on track!</p>
<p>&lt;hifi&gt; BUT I CRY that MIDS GO !!!</p>
<p>&lt;hifi&gt; ok</p>
<p>&lt;hifi&gt; .</p>
<p>&lt;luckypunk&gt; IIP development. Whats the current status of that code snapshot</p>
<p> release?</p>
<p>&lt;luckypunk&gt; That was supposed to happen today?</p>
<p>&lt;hezekiah&gt; Well, unless UserX has an objection to the tarball I made,</p>
<p> it's done.</p>
<p>&lt;luckypunk&gt; Ok. Post it on the wiki?</p>
<p>&lt;hezekiah&gt; UserX? Were there any problems with the tarball?</p>
<p>&lt;UserX&gt; no problems with the tarball</p>
<p>&lt;luckypunk&gt; Yes, but are there any windows compilations?</p>
<p>&lt;hezekiah&gt; OK1</p>
<p>&lt;hezekiah&gt; http://invisiblenet.net/hezekiah</p>
<p>&lt;hezekiah&gt; Get your tarballs there!</p>
<p>&lt;UserX&gt; there hasn't been a windows compilation on the windows version yet</p>
<p>&lt;luckypunk&gt; hm</p>
<p>&lt;LeerokLacerta&gt; "tarballs" sound like some sort of food...</p>
<p>* luckypunk will try and make one.</p>
<p>--- hezekiah has changed the topic to: IIP Meeting - logfiles:</p>
<p> http://wiki.invisiblenet.net/?Meetings - http://www.invisiblenet.net/research/</p>
<p>- tarballs of the 'unstable' development release are at</p>
<p> http://invisiblenet.net/hezekiah | We love you mids!</p>
<p>&lt;luckypunk&gt; They are. For GCC.</p>
<p>&lt;luckypunk&gt; lol</p>
<p>&lt;Rain&gt; Sticky food.</p>
<p>&lt;hezekiah&gt; There is one 'documented bug'.</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; I can compile a win32 version if you'd like</p>
<p>&lt;Rain&gt; So, could you give a quick describtion of what is new in this release?</p>
<p>&lt;hezekiah&gt; If you run isproxy, and it fails to bind the port, then it will</p>
<p> /not/ abort. It will just sit there wasting memory.</p>
<p>&lt;hezekiah&gt; Rain: That's too much for me to handle (not to mention I don't</p>
<p> even _know_ all the differences).</p>
<p>&lt;Ambience&gt; this one I assume: iip-1.2-dev1.tar.bz2 01-Jul-2003 01:45</p>
<p> 292k tar archive ?</p>
<p>&lt;hezekiah&gt; UserX could give a much better description</p>
<p>&lt;hezekiah&gt; UserX?</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; hezekiah/UserX can we get a changelog of the differences by chance</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; that may be a day before that gets done</p>
<p>&lt;hezekiah&gt; Ambience: Yup! Or the Gziped one. There the same tarball.</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; because there are a log of changes</p>
<p>&lt;Rain&gt; Oh, and has the expired IIP signing-key been replaced?</p>
<p>&lt;Ambience&gt; hezekiah: ok</p>
<p>&lt;hezekiah&gt; nop: I joined IIP after the development branch was already in</p>
<p> progress.</p>
<p>--&gt; Ehud (~hezekiah@anon.iip) has joined #iip-dev</p>
<p>&lt;hezekiah&gt; Rain: No. I had to use my GPG key.</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; no one has tested the compile of this dev branch in win32 have they?</p>
<p>&lt;luckypunk&gt; Hey, is this src is CVS?</p>
<p>&lt;hezekiah&gt; Rain: I couldn't contact anyone who had the IIP release key.</p>
<p>&lt;hezekiah&gt; luckypunk: Yes.</p>
<p>* luckypunk has, but his system didn't work for it.</p>
<p>&lt;Rain&gt; hezekiah: Ok, roger.</p>
<p>&lt;UserX&gt; changes: multi-threading, bignum support via openSSL or GMP, numerous</p>
<p> inmprovements to the memory management system</p>
<p>&lt;hezekiah&gt; luckypunk: Right now that tarball is a copy of what you get when</p>
<p> you check out the hezekiah-dev branch from CVS and run 'make dist-bzip2'.</p>
<p>&lt;luckypunk&gt; Gah! I hate windows.</p>
<p>&lt;Rain&gt; UserX: niceties ;)</p>
<p>&lt;hezekiah&gt; And of course there are other internal changes that only the</p>
<p> developers see. :)</p>
<p>&lt;qriff&gt; just as a question for the qurious... what defines the holder for "Trent"...</p>
<p>&lt;hezekiah&gt; One simple thing is that now that BigNum is implemented using</p>
<p> either GMP or SSL, login is a LOT faster.</p>
<p>&lt;Rain&gt; May i mention a IIP quirk i noticed earlier today?</p>
<p>* luckypunk guesses its a yes.</p>
<p>&lt;hifi&gt; at wiki search button is absent . only window to type in but nowhere to</p>
<p> click lol .</p>
<p>&lt;luckypunk&gt; hit enter.</p>
<p>&lt;qriff&gt; and what about channel/nick expiration...</p>
<p>--- Ehud is now known as logger</p>
<p>&lt;qriff&gt; registration that is...</p>
<p>&lt;Rain&gt; Ok, it seems to me like you cannot start isproxy from a /path/to/isproxy</p>
<p> command, but intead have to do a cd /path/to and then do a ./isproxy</p>
<p>&lt;hezekiah&gt; Rain: Let me guess ... you get a configuration screen or a request</p>
<p> for entropy, right?</p>
<p>* jrand0m has a feeling this will be a very.long.meeting</p>
<p>&lt;Rain&gt; Is that intentional, or just some quirk of my local system?</p>
<p>&lt;Rain&gt; hezekiah: yes.</p>
<p>&lt;hezekiah&gt; Rain: You need to make a .iip subdirectory in your home directory.</p>
<p>&lt;Rain&gt; It claims that the conf-file is not found.</p>
<p>&lt;Rain&gt; with my .conf file?</p>
<p>&lt;hezekiah&gt; Rain: If no such directory exists, isproxy will always look for</p>
<p> the config files in the current directory</p>
<p>--&gt; AmishOne (amishone@anon.iip) has joined #iip-dev</p>
<p>&lt;Rain&gt; Ahh. Of course.</p>
<p>&lt;hezekiah&gt; OK ...</p>
<p>&lt;hezekiah&gt; nop? Was there anything else for item 3?</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; have we tested it for win32</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; compile wise</p>
<p>&lt;hezekiah&gt; I haven't.</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; UserX: ?</p>
<p>&lt;UserX&gt; no</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; I will test it this week then</p>
<p>&lt;hezekiah&gt; luckypunk, tried doing hezekiah-dev recently and complained for</p>
<p> compile errors.</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; that's key to maintain portability</p>
<p>&lt;hezekiah&gt; I suspect there might be problems.</p>
<p>* luckypunk tried, it balked.</p>
<p>&lt;hezekiah&gt; Yup. There are problems.</p>
<p>&lt;Ambience&gt; I'll have to leave for the more dominant one is ordering me to</p>
<p> and I have no choice here. So I'll be off to bed, but will be logging #iip-dev</p>
<p> for future reference.</p>
<p>&lt;Ambience&gt; see ya guys!</p>
<p>&lt;lonelynerd&gt; later</p>
<p>&lt;qriff&gt; bye</p>
<p>&lt;hezekiah&gt; Bye, Ambience. :)</p>
<p>&lt;luckypunk&gt; i'll be back.</p>
<p>&lt;Ambience&gt; &lt;--gone (log on)</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; ok</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; this topic is done</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; next on agenda</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; what's 4?</p>
<p>&lt;hezekiah&gt; 4) IIP development restructuring proposal</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; ok</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; we had a meeting about a discussion and proposal brought to us by jrand0m</p>
<p> for the future development</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; and as well</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; I have had a lot of privmessages directed at me</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; for requests to focus on an arbitrary framework, instead of IRC specific</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; aka a framework that supports IRC + a whole lot more</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; so the want is obviously there</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; and the developers definitely want to go there as well</p>
<p>&lt;hezekiah&gt; Amen!</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; the question of how to go about doing it</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; and how to make the most productive use of our developers</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; is up in the air</p>
<p>&lt;ChZEROHag&gt; XML</p>
<p>&lt;mids&gt; is his framework site available to everybody?</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; this isn't specifically about language</p>
<p>&lt;ChZEROHag&gt; create a communications protocol</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; ok, please let me finish</p>
<p>&lt;ChZEROHag&gt; I've started on that somewhere...</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; then we can comment</p>
<p>&lt;ChZEROHag&gt; My apologies</p>
<p>&lt;ChZEROHag&gt; I'm a bit in and out at the moment</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; ok,</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; no prob</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; We are at a stage where there is discussion of an arbitrary communications</p>
<p> protocol</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; specifically for anonymous and secure communication</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; at this point jrand0m, any chance we can post the logs of #iip-future</p>
<p> meeting</p>
<p>&lt;jrand0m&gt; sure</p>
<p>&lt;jrand0m&gt; perhaps those zips I sent you so people don't have to struggle</p>
<p> through freenet for the other pages too</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; ok</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; hold</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; please</p>
<p>&lt;jrand0m&gt; (btw, the logs were unedited, so expect the usual occational banter)</p>
<p>&lt;hezekiah&gt; lol. Yup! You'll get to see exactly how much I DON'T know about</p>
<p> p2p networks! lol</p>
<p>&lt;jrand0m&gt; heh</p>
<p>&lt;hezekiah&gt; (And they'll probably have my conspiracy theories about nop</p>
<p> too! So be sure to read the logs! ;-) )</p>
<p>&lt;-- logger has quit (Ping timeout)</p>
<p>&lt;hezekiah&gt; Ugh</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; ok</p>
<p>&lt;Neo&gt; the logs will be a lot to read. can someone summarizze for the meeting</p>
<p> what was covered and some key points of all this?</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; http://office.invisiblenet.net/iip_future.zip</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; and</p>
<p>&lt;hezekiah&gt; At this point, the 'stable' release is being more unstable than</p>
<p> the 'unstable' one!! Urg.</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; http://office.invisiblenet.net/meetingPrepnotes.zip</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; http://office.invisiblenet.net/jrand0mnetwork_protocol.txt</p>
<p>&lt;jrand0m&gt; meetingPrepnotes.zip is a small doc that summarizes the meeting,</p>
<p> and the meeting was basically "ok, any thoughts?".</p>
<p>&lt;-- Delly has quit (EOF From client)</p>
<p>&lt;jrand0m&gt; essentially, the proposal is to get going on a generic secure</p>
<p> anonymous message based system, and run iip on top of that</p>
<p>&lt;mids&gt; is there a zip with anonCommFramework too?</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; I didn't see that</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; jrand0m can you zip and send I'll post to site</p>
<p>&lt;jrand0m&gt; sure, h/o</p>
<p>&lt;-- Phiberoptika has quit (* ciaito mua mua *)</p>
<p>&lt;Neo&gt; what is anonCommFramework?</p>
<p>&lt;jrand0m&gt; uber-quick summary of the meeting in iip_future.zip is "ok,</p>
<p> here's the proposal, any comments?" and comments were basically "ok, can IIP work</p>
<p> as planned on this?</p>
<p>&lt;jrand0m&gt; if you're on freenet, anonCommFramework is at</p>
<p> SSK@MQNd5lT-X5wHA4vONvtVadi6q1IPAgM/anonCommFramework/2//</p>
<p>* jrand0m is sending nop a zip of that momentarily</p>
<p>&lt;Rain&gt; Did you discuss support for PGP-based nyms?</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; ah hem, this is early discussions</p>
<p>&lt;-- ChZEROHag has quit (Ping timeout)</p>
<p>&lt;jrand0m&gt; no, endpoints in the framework are not nym based, they're idents</p>
<p>&lt;Rain&gt; Right. So nyms an higher level.</p>
<p>&lt;Rain&gt; are</p>
<p>&lt;jrand0m&gt; (and for lots of reasons, they shouldn't be long term idents</p>
<p> like nyms)</p>
<p>&lt;jrand0m&gt; yes</p>
<p>&lt;Rain&gt; I was just thinking of something like trent with PGP signarute auth.</p>
<p>&lt;mids&gt; trent is central</p>
<p>&lt;mids&gt; central=bad</p>
<p>--&gt; logger (~hezekiah@anon.iip) has joined #iip-dev</p>
<p>&lt;jrand0m&gt; briefly, anonCommFramework is a meta-network. a generic set</p>
<p> of protocols &amp; structures that an anonymous communication network could use to</p>
<p> interoperate to provide militant grade anonymity</p>
<p>&lt;wilde&gt; what's the one sentence explanation of your ideas on network topology?</p>
<p>--&gt; ChZEROHag (~hag@anon.iip) has joined #iip-dev</p>
<p>&lt;ChZEROHag&gt; that was fun</p>
<p>--&gt; Delly (dedede@anon.iip) has joined #iip-dev</p>
<p>&lt;Rain&gt; mids: Yea. I meant similar services.</p>
<p>&lt;lonelynerd&gt; what about having to pay with hashcash to send data? couldn't</p>
<p> that help against flooding?</p>
<p>&lt;jrand0m&gt; wilde&gt; heterogeneous. no one answer solves all problems.</p>
<p> interoperate, balancing latency, bandwidth, anonymity, and reliability to provide</p>
<p> the user's needs</p>
<p>&lt;Delly&gt; still in 4) ?</p>
<p>&lt;hezekiah&gt; Delly: Yup</p>
<p>&lt;Delly&gt; thx</p>
<p>&lt;ChZEROHag&gt; I think when the ircd is removed from the equation, we'll have</p>
<p> far better options than (hash|think|real)cash</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; jrand0m: any luck sending</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; ;)</p>
<p>&lt;jrand0m&gt; uploading to hush now.</p>
<p>&lt;jrand0m&gt; ChZEROHag&gt; anonCommFramework has built in support for providing</p>
<p> network use authorization credentials</p>
<p>&lt;Rain&gt; There has been a lot of talk of IIP-Freenet interoparability. Will that</p>
<p> fit into the framework, or are we talking application-level again?</p>
<p>&lt;ChZEROHag&gt; come again?</p>
<p>&lt;jrand0m&gt; app level</p>
<p>&lt;jrand0m&gt; what we're discussing is splitting iip into two parts - the irc</p>
<p> part, and the message based secure anonymous network</p>
<p>&lt;wilde&gt; one solution could be:</p>
<p>&lt;Rain&gt; jrand0m: k.</p>
<p>&lt;wilde&gt; Application &lt;-&gt; SOCKS5 Proxy Interface &lt;-&gt; Onion Wrapper &lt;-&gt; Onion Router</p>
<p> 1 &lt;-&gt; ... &lt;-&gt; Onion Router N &lt;-&gt; Exit Relay &lt;-&gt; Public Server</p>
<p>&lt;jrand0m&gt; building a DHT on top of the message layer should be fairly easy</p>
<p>&lt;hezekiah&gt; DHT?</p>
<p>&lt;jrand0m&gt; distributed hash table</p>
<p>&lt;jrand0m&gt; (ala freenet)</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; ok, jrand0m let me clarify</p>
<p>&lt;ChZEROHag&gt; wilde: I think the plan is to design it such that the 'public</p>
<p> server' could be removed from the equation at some point</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; are we talking about splitting irc, or merging to focus on anonymity</p>
<p> framework</p>
<p>&lt;jrand0m&gt; well, given unlimited # of developers, splitting and doing both</p>
<p> (well, 3 things ;) in parallel.</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; what I mean is that the irc part is application layer</p>
<p>&lt;jrand0m&gt; given reality, there's prolly only enough dev time to get the</p>
<p> comm system running first, then iip on top</p>
<p>&lt;jrand0m&gt; right exactly</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; and since we have a somewhat viable network working with IIP</p>
<p>&lt;jrand0m&gt; irc is just another app running on it</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; then the idea should be</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; is to have developers start focusing on framework aspects</p>
<p>&lt;wilde&gt; ChZEROHag: ok, what I suggested is an anonymizing layer for regular</p>
<p> internet traffic, not a seperate network</p>
<p>&lt;hezekiah&gt; (This could get fun.)</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; wilde there are weaknesses to that</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; just to let you know</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; aka the clear text on the outer ends</p>
<p>&lt;-- AmishOne has quit (EOF From client)</p>
<p>&lt;wilde&gt; nop: yes, so all connections should be encrypted to the ends</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; we have an effort as well to have anonymous web browsing possible with</p>
<p> this network</p>
<p>&lt;jrand0m&gt; yes. it must be able to operate without ever leaving the mixnet</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; but it is not as real time direct as your proposal wilde</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; it uses some time delay tactics</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; with caching etc</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; timing attacks are a serious threat to anonymity</p>
<p>&lt;hifi&gt; I WANT ANONYMISER BASED on IIP !! I DON"t TRUST OTHER ANONYSERS THEY ARE</p>
<p> FBI TRAPs !!</p>
<p>&lt;mids&gt; http://mids.student.utwente.nl/~mids/anonCommFramework/</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; hifi, this isn't changing IIP, this is moving us forward</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; thanks mids</p>
<p>&lt;jrand0m&gt; heh word mids, my moz is hanging</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; ok</p>
<p>&lt;wilde&gt; although independant mixnets are cool, the real killer apps will probably</p>
<p> be general ip traffic anonymizers</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; wilde, they are myths</p>
<p>&lt;wilde&gt; killer apps?</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; no</p>
<p>&lt;-- thetower has quit (EOF From client)</p>
<p>&lt;jrand0m&gt; wilde&gt; that could be a service built on top of the comm layer</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; general ip traffic anonymizers</p>
<p>&lt;wilde&gt; or ip traffic anonymizers?</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; so far they don't exist</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; they exist in papers only</p>
<p>--&gt; thetower (none@anon.iip) has joined #iip-dev</p>
<p>&lt;jrand0m&gt; if you build an anonymizing service on top of the comm layer,</p>
<p> however, your outbound routers will get shut down quickly</p>
<p>&lt;thetower&gt; Haha, I just noticed I wasn't port forwarding.</p>
<p>&lt;thetower&gt; Oop, sorry, wrong chan</p>
<p>&lt;wilde&gt; nop: what about the ZKS system?</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; is it still around?</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; and working</p>
<p>&lt;wilde&gt; nope, bad business</p>
<p>&lt;wilde&gt; few people paid</p>
<p>&lt;wilde&gt; but the framework seemed to work, but all nodes were ZKS:s paid relays</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; wilde but they were internal and it wasn't complete</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; it still had certain vulnerabilities</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; it was a start</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; I met Ian Goldberg at CodeCon 2k2, and he himself admitted it was incomplete</p>
<p> to what he desired</p>
<p>&lt;wilde&gt; yes, everything has vulnerabilities, we just raise the cost of tracing</p>
<p> dramatically</p>
<p>&lt;jrand0m&gt; right, after the mixnet is up and running, i'd like to see wilde</p>
<p> offer generic outbound proxy services. that'd be cool</p>
<p>&lt;jrand0m&gt; (sincerely)</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; jrand0m: but again the ultimate would be using that magic mirror concept</p>
<p> for optimum protection</p>
<p>&lt;ChZEROHag&gt; Probably the hardest option, but wouldn't freenet be a good</p>
<p> framework to build from?</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; wilde, maybe you and I can discuss this in another forum at some point</p>
<p>&lt;jrand0m&gt; but in any case, the network must be built first</p>
<p>&lt;ChZEROHag&gt; Or is that not what we're discussing?</p>
<p>&lt;jrand0m&gt; ChZEROHag&gt; no.</p>
<p>&lt;jrand0m&gt; freenet doesn't provide hard anonymity</p>
<p>&lt;ChZEROHag&gt; aah</p>
<p>&lt;ChZEROHag&gt; I should try paying attention</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; ok, moving forward</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; UserX you still here</p>
<p>&lt;wilde&gt; nop: yes, if you have decided on topology there is no need to discuss</p>
<p> this in public</p>
<p>&lt;UserX&gt; I'm still here</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; well it's application layer, so that comes after net design etc</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; ok</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; where did we leave off at #iip-future meeting</p>
<p>&lt;-- hezekiah has quit (Ping timeout)</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; let's start there</p>
<p>--- logger is now known as Ehud</p>
<p>* nop is catching up on the meeting logs</p>
<p>&lt;jrand0m&gt; [04:31] &lt;jrand0m&gt; I think we're back to your question. can /</p>
<p> should the irc functionality move forward as its going or move towards this mixnet.</p>
<p> there are significant benefits to move towards the mixnet, but some aspects of</p>
<p> the irc side seem to require some redesign to operate on it.</p>
<p>&lt;jrand0m&gt; [04:31] &lt;jrand0m&gt; the right way for the irc development to go is</p>
<p> not for me to say</p>
<p>&lt;Ehud&gt; Basically, UserX had some thinking to do about wether IIP could run</p>
<p> satisfactorily on the mixnet.</p>
<p>&lt;mids&gt; nite all</p>
<p>&lt;-- mids (mids@anon.iip) has left #iip-dev (mids)</p>
<p>&lt;ChZEROHag&gt; Would it not be an idea to create a replacement irc in parallel</p>
<p> with a mixnet?</p>
<p>&lt;ChZEROHag&gt; After all it's going to be damn hard to use a normal ircd</p>
<p>&lt;jrand0m&gt; ChZEROHag&gt; given infinite # devs, yes</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; ok ChZEROHag silence please :)</p>
<p>&lt;ChZEROHag&gt; Assume infinite devs</p>
<p>&lt;ChZEROHag&gt; Oh is this not a question bit?</p>
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<p>&lt;nop&gt; not yet</p>
<p>&lt;UserX&gt; Unfortuantlely I haven't had time to seriously sit down and think about</p>
<p> how your proposal would fit in with IIP</p>
<p>&lt;ChZEROHag&gt; oh</p>
<p>&lt;ChZEROHag&gt; oops</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; just want to get into the discussion</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; well</p>
<p>&lt;jrand0m&gt; UserX&gt; think of the mixnet as a socket</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; let me suggest something</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; do we agree that our goal is not just IRC ?</p>
<p>&lt;lonelynerd&gt; well</p>
<p>&lt;Delly&gt; it's a great idea sure</p>
<p>&lt;hezekiah&gt; nop: Beyond all doubts, I agree that the goal is an anonymous</p>
<p> network.</p>
<p>&lt;lonelynerd&gt; doing something traffic-intensive would have the potential to</p>
<p> ruin the whole project</p>
<p>&lt;hezekiah&gt; nop: IRC is just a starting point.</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; ok, well what we should look at is this</p>
<p>&lt;jrand0m&gt; NOT doing something traffic intensive has the potential to get</p>
<p> us to overlook problems :)</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; instead of saying IIP doesn't fit</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; or it does fit</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; let's look at what modifications need to be made for irc to fit with this</p>
<p> mixnet, whether it's a mod to the mixnet itself</p>
<p>&lt;lonelynerd&gt; jrand0m: hmm</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; for instance</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; UserX has a vision of using channels as endpoints</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; Jrand0m calls them idents</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; are they having subtle differences</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; or are they largely different</p>
<p>&lt;jrand0m&gt; there's substance to those differences.</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; can we review that</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; on both sides</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; from jrand0m and UserX</p>
<p>&lt;-- hezekiah has quit (EOF From client)</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; actually</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; read the log</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; nevermind</p>
<p>&lt;jrand0m&gt; ;)</p>
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<p>&lt;jrand0m&gt; the hesitancy I have w/ sending messages to a channel ident and</p>
<p> having that channel redistribute it to members is that the channel gets plaintext</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; how does it get plaintext?</p>
<p>&lt;jrand0m&gt; instead, I'd suggest having a channel contain just the channel info</p>
<p> (modes, users, topic, etc)</p>
<p>&lt;jrand0m&gt; the channel is just an application running on one (well, 3+)</p>
<p> routers listening to one (well, 3+) identities. when you /msg a channel, you</p>
<p> send a message to that identity (application). it then resends it out to the N</p>
<p> users in the channel, encrypted to each</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; well</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; I had a proposal for that</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; that would have the channel not contain plaintext</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; directly</p>
<p>&lt;jrand0m&gt; at least, without adding a channel key (which would be managed</p>
<p> by the channel application itself, which defeats the point)</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; well</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; we were having channel keys</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; for private channels</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; and pub channels are public anyway</p>
<p>&lt;jrand0m&gt; right. there may be ways around it. y'all know more about irc</p>
<p> than I do. there are other ways that don't require going this route though</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; see the neat thing with message channels is this</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; you scale slightly better than trying to find all idents to send to directly</p>
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<p>&lt;jrand0m&gt; I'm not sure you scale better, but you do redistribute the load</p>
<p>&lt;jrand0m&gt; (we can find idents via O(log(n)))</p>
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<p>&lt;jrand0m&gt; but thats neither here nor there, this is application layer</p>
<p> design ;)</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; right</p>
<p>&lt;jrand0m&gt; all we need to do, imho, is find some workable ways that *could*</p>
<p> operate on the comm layer and then leave it to the wayside until we get there</p>
<p>&lt;UserX&gt; jrand0m: messages sent to channels are encrypted with a channel key that</p>
<p> is different to the channel's identity. a channel server can't decrypt a message</p>
<p> unless it has come across the key by othermeans</p>
<p>&lt;sahara&gt; did I miss the meeting?</p>
<p>&lt;jrand0m&gt; you've got some ways that could work, it sounds like, right?</p>
<p>&lt;jrand0m&gt; UserX&gt; how does a user joining a channel get the key?</p>
<p>&lt;hezekiah&gt; sahara: Nope. You're right in the middle of it! :)</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; it's a key exchange</p>
<p>&lt;jrand0m&gt; with whom nop?</p>
<p>&lt;jrand0m&gt; brand new user joining #anonymous, and the app containing the</p>
<p> list of users on #anonymous doesn't have the key (As userx said)</p>
<p>&lt;jrand0m&gt; (all I'm saying is there's a way to get all the functionality</p>
<p> and still avoid having a channel key)</p>
<p>&lt;UserX&gt; jrand0m: with public channels it is derived from the channel name. with</p>
<p> private channels the user either creates one or a someone gives them the keys to</p>
<p> the channel</p>
<p>&lt;jrand0m&gt; 'k, cool</p>
<p>&lt;jrand0m&gt; so apps managing public channels can read the plaintext (by</p>
<p> deriving from the channel name)</p>
<p>&lt;jrand0m&gt; (which is prolly fine)</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; right</p>
<p>&lt;wilde&gt; jrand0m: if the apps encrypt the plaintext to each recepient, will it</p>
<p> scale well?</p>
<p>&lt;jrand0m&gt; yes wilde, perhaps better (depending on the algorithm used to</p>
<p> nominate channel managers)</p>
<p>&lt;jrand0m&gt; (though it will potentially have a nonserialized delivery)</p>
<p>&lt;jrand0m&gt; ((though i think thats the case with normal irc anyway))</p>
<p>&lt;-- thecrypto has quit (Ping timeout)</p>
<p>&lt;jrand0m&gt; but, getting back on to the question -</p>
<p>&lt;jrand0m&gt; nop, what do we hope to have decided by the end of the discussion</p>
<p> of #4?</p>
<p>&lt;-- Neo has quit (Ping timeout)</p>
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<p>&lt;nop&gt; well</p>
<p>&lt;-- sahara has quit (EOF From client)</p>
<p>&lt;hifi&gt; simple site , problem is i am tech blond but want good things lol</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; I was hoping that we could re-organize, but this is gonna be a discussion</p>
<p> for later</p>
<p>&lt;hifi&gt; sorry OOPS</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; UserX</p>
<p>&lt;-- d has quit (Client exiting)</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; how long will you need to think about certain aspects, and maybe doc them</p>
<p> up as a concern list</p>
<p>&lt;UserX&gt; hard to say. maybe a week</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; what I'm thinking jrand0m is that a lot of this needs sorting out, rather</p>
<p> than just plowing into it, or we'll end up at the beginning with nothing to show</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; so let's push a week into this</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; and see what concerns are coming into play</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; because again</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; we want an adaptable mixnet</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; any application should be able to survive</p>
<p>&lt;jrand0m&gt; absolutely</p>
<p>&lt;jrand0m&gt; thats the point of the anon comm framework</p>
<p>&lt;-- wilde has quit ()</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; ok, so let's put this off a week, and focus on some realistic proposals</p>
<p> that can fit all of our needs</p>
<p>&lt;jrand0m&gt; you say "send message M to location L" and it magically, securely,</p>
<p> anonymously gets delivered</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; but magic is one thing</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; science is another</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; of course you know that :)</p>
<p>&lt;jrand0m&gt; the magic is from the app level's perspective ;)</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; yes</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; understood</p>
<p>&lt;jrand0m&gt; the science is in that 15 page anonCommFramework/2// ;)</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; ok</p>
<p>&lt;hezekiah&gt; lol</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; UserX, if you can get that in a week that would be helpful</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; ?</p>
<p>&lt;jrand0m&gt; I'll aim at revamping the docs &amp; getting comm layer network design</p>
<p> ready for then so we can hit the ground running</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; well</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; we haven't agreed on certain aspects</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; I think that still should be hashed out</p>
<p>&lt;jrand0m&gt; what, in the network layer, haven't we agreed on?</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; personally I agree that maybe you post your anonCommFramework on iip-dev</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; and have it reviewed and commented</p>
<p>* jrand0m isn't on iip-dev</p>
<p>&lt;Rain&gt; So, meeting again next tuesday, same bat-time, same bat-channel?</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; what haven't we agreed on is whether it can support all applications</p>
<p>&lt;hezekiah&gt; jrand0m: Just post to iip-dev@invisiblenet.net .</p>
<p>&lt;hezekiah&gt; Rain: We are on item #4. There are still other items to go. :)</p>
<p>&lt;jrand0m&gt; its ~800k. if someone could post the URL to mids' mirror that'd</p>
<p> be cool</p>
<p>&lt;Delly&gt; argh</p>
<p>&lt;Delly&gt; re</p>
<p>&lt;Delly&gt; about services, i think if IIP become more easier and friendly, we will see</p>
<p> more users and more nodes. it's why i'm making script for mIRC user, one is a Trent</p>
<p> script, allowing to use Trent and Anonymail with the mouse, the other is a script</p>
<p> allowing to transfer file over iip, staying anonymous (using uuencoding). The</p>
<p> "protocol" used is easy and could be done for lot's irc clients with scripting</p>
<p> support. And so everybody could transfer little files, even between di</p>
<p>&lt;jrand0m&gt; nop&gt; I'm 100% certain it can support all applications.</p>
<p>&lt;Rain&gt; hezekiah: Right. My missunderstanding.</p>
<p>&lt;jrand0m&gt; this layer has been used for over a decade in hundreds of industries</p>
<p>&lt;Delly&gt; was my thought of the day</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; well then where do we not agree</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; if Irc is an issue, then how is it adaptable?</p>
<p>&lt;jrand0m&gt; it isn't an issue</p>
<p>&lt;jrand0m&gt; y'all just don't understand the layer's abstraction ;)</p>
<p>&lt;lonelynerd&gt; Delly: i have a perl script that allows one to use ssh/telnet/etc</p>
<p> over irc</p>
<p>&lt;jrand0m&gt; (really, think of it as a socket)</p>
<p>&lt;Delly&gt; lonelynerd, the goal was just to enhance mirc</p>
<p>&lt;Delly&gt; for iip network</p>
<p>&lt;lonelynerd&gt; Delly: yeah, but if you use base64, i think it's compatible with</p>
<p> this one</p>
<p>&lt;Delly&gt; could be possible tu use it</p>
<p>&lt;jrand0m&gt; ok, we ready for #5 yet?</p>
<p>&lt;hezekiah&gt; nop?</p>
<p>&lt;-- hezekiah has quit (Client exiting)</p>
<p>&lt;Delly&gt; oups i thought it was 5) !</p>
<p>&lt;ChZEROHag&gt; There's a 5?</p>
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<p>&lt;-- hezekiah has quit (Client exiting)</p>
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<p>&lt;nop&gt; sorry</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; delly</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; you guys</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; this is off topic</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; please reserve your conversation outside this channel</p>
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<p>&lt;nop&gt; well</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; jrand0m</p>
<p>--- hezekiah_ is now known as hezekiah</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; before I agree to go to 5</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; the problem I'm seeing is</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; UserX has a voice</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; as well</p>
<p>--- Trent@anon.iip gives channel operator status to hezekiah</p>
<p>&lt;jrand0m&gt; of course</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; and if he sees logistical problems</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; I believe they should be heard</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; so you can't just say, hey it's gonna work</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; it has to be "solidly" agreed on both ends</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; aka he needs convincing</p>
<p>&lt;jrand0m&gt; right, but I'm not going to sit on my thumbs waiting for him</p>
<p> to doc them up. if he does come up with some problems in a week, fantastic,</p>
<p> and we'll revise accordingly</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; or he needs to convine you</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; but the idea is this</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; what I'm trying to propose with this</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; is to reorganize our dev team to get on your bandwagon</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; with that</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; it would put our energy in working on the network design</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; that's the idea</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; thus helping all of us get somewhere specific</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; I'm not trying to slow down</p>
<p>&lt;jrand0m&gt; right, i don't expect to have a V1.0 final protocol spec next week.</p>
<p> last night I downloaded about 50 new articles off citeseer to do some more research</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; ok</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; so can we post your proposal to iip-dev</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; and get some review</p>
<p>&lt;jrand0m&gt; coo'</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; also I advise on your own to propose it on cryptography@metzdowd.com</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; which will get some serious review</p>
<p>&lt;jrand0m&gt; sounds good</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; ok</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; UserX, you there</p>
<p>&lt;UserX&gt; i'm here</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; ok, so jrand0m will work on protocol spec, and can I assume you'll come</p>
<p> up with a concerns list or some additives to the protocol?</p>
<p>&lt;UserX&gt; yes</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; ok, let's resume this in a week</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; what was 5?</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; sorry If I'm being a pain</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; just want to organize it</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; to make sure we're all on same page</p>
<p>&lt;jrand0m&gt; recruiting for services...?</p>
<p>&lt;hezekiah&gt; 5) Recruiting for services to aid with IIP</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; ok</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; yes</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; since mids departure</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; and cohesions return</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; we are possibly looking for others to contribute to IIP in some aspect</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; this does not mean you have to be a hardcore core developer</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; but additives like maybe a web maintainer would be good,</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; some PR would be good</p>
<p>&lt;hezekiah&gt; luckypunk volunteered to manage the website.</p>
<p>&lt;hezekiah&gt; &lt;luckypunk&gt; I wanna help/take over the IIP website.</p>
<p>&lt;hezekiah&gt; &lt;luckypunk&gt; :D</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; and if more people would like to hop on with the upcoming project that</p>
<p> jrand0m is proposing</p>
<p>&lt;jrand0m&gt; wikked</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; even if you just want to review the protocol</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; that is more than enough help</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; the reality is this</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; we have a lot of developers with real time jobs</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; and it is consuming them at the moment</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; and any additional help is wanted</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; since this is a huge endeavor</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; to take IIP to where it needs to be</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; aka InvisibleNet at some point</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; real life jobs ;)</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; anyway</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; the idea is</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; it would be cool if people would love to add to this project in some ways</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; using their skills, and I know their are some programmers out there</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; and a few that have some spare tiem</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; time</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; luckypunk's reliability will have to be reviewed, no offense, I've had</p>
<p> him offer before with help maintaining a freesite, and no luck there</p>
<p>&lt;hezekiah&gt; nop: I can understand that one. ;-)</p>
<p>&lt;hezekiah&gt; nop: He just asked me to forward the offer along because he</p>
<p> wouldn't be here.</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; ok</p>
<p>&lt;hezekiah&gt; nop: I did. My part's done. :)</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; well, either way, anyone who wants to join in</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; contact one of us</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; either at iip@invisiblenet.net</p>
<p>&lt;hezekiah&gt; One of whom?</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; or just by nick,</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; hezekiah, userx, nop,</p>
<p>&lt;jrand0m&gt; I hear anyone who volutneers to help iip gets free hookers and blow</p>
<p>&lt;hezekiah&gt; What are 'hookers and blow'?</p>
<p>&lt;hezekiah&gt; ... or do I not want to know?</p>
<p>&lt;jrand0m&gt; heh</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; hezekiah: don't ask</p>
<p>&lt;hezekiah&gt; OK.</p>
<p>&lt;hezekiah&gt; I don't want to know. :)</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; hezekiah: enjoy your sheltered life ;)</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; while you can</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; cuz college is gonna be fun :)</p>
<p>&lt;hezekiah&gt; I'm enjoying it! I'm enjoying it!</p>
<p>* jrand0m enjoys the hookers and blow ;)</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; jrand0m: quick question</p>
<p>* w hugs luckypunk and nop</p>
<p>&lt;jrand0m&gt; si sr?</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; jrand0m: are you considering yourself a dev of IIP at some time soon?</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; since you are offering a merge ;)</p>
<p>&lt;hifi&gt;</p>
<p> http://www.guerrillanews.com/cgi-bin/wwwthreads/showflat.pl?Cat=&amp;Board=gnn&amp;Number=182767&amp;page=0&amp;view=collapsed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=0&amp;part=</p>
<p>&lt;hifi&gt; sorry , opps again</p>
<p>&lt;jrand0m&gt; nop&gt; a dev of invisiblenet, but I can't contribute to iip</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; understood</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; IIP == invisiblenet future projects</p>
<p>&lt;hezekiah&gt; jrand0m: Good working!</p>
<p>&lt;hezekiah&gt; jrand0m: Wording.</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; devs wanted for either</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; to make that clear</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; specifically cuz jrand0m could use a good team set</p>
<p>&lt;Addic&gt; I could take a look of the Windows code...</p>
<p>&lt;jrand0m&gt; si sr. once we get rolling into software design, there's going</p>
<p> to be more truckloads of work than one can imagine</p>
<p>&lt;jrand0m&gt; word Addic</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; awesome</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; ok</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; I will send this request on iip-dev line as well</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; anyone interested please don't hesitate to contact</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; was there a 6?</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; I believe so</p>
<p>&lt;jrand0m&gt; 6) comments suggestions and people who want to help</p>
<p>&lt;jrand0m&gt; suggestion: &lt; 1.8 hours next time :)</p>
<p>&lt;jrand0m&gt; (not that any of the topics could have been condensed any more</p>
<p> than they were)</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; no comments?</p>
<p>* nop thinks everyone's asleep</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; hehe</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; we bored them</p>
<p>&lt;jrand0m&gt; w3wt</p>
<p>&lt;Addic&gt; heh, who has been working on the Windows' code this far?</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; ok</p>
<p>&lt;hifi&gt; zzzzzz...</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; UserX has made it so far portable</p>
<p>&lt;Rain&gt; What kind of talents are we looking for?</p>
<p>&lt;Addic&gt; ok</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; ok, let me re-iterate</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; Coders, Graphics dudes, Web devs, PR people, Web maintainers</p>
<p>&lt;Rain&gt; Ok, missed that. Sry.</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; and if you can write biz plans, that helps me too :)</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; you didn't miss</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; I didn't go in enough detail</p>
<p>&lt;jrand0m&gt; heh</p>
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<p>&lt;hifi&gt; I am Born PR people</p>
<p>&lt;Rain&gt; Step one: Collect Underpants.</p>
<p>&lt;Addic&gt; translating to other languages at wiki?</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; yes</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; that would be great</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; translations</p>
<p>&lt;Addic&gt; ok, i could do that too</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; documentation</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; etc</p>
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<p>&lt;nop&gt; even organization</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; anyone who wants to be actively involved in helping InvisibelNet/IIP</p>
<p>&lt;hifi&gt; I invite ppl to use IIP alll the time</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; thnx hifi</p>
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<p>&lt;Rain&gt; What kind of org skills?</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; well, maybe help run the meetings, or maybe forcing us dev guys to get</p>
<p> more docs on the protocol</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; etc</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; possibly organize interviews and some type of press releases</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; some ideas for the future of promoting the use of IIP</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; etc</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; ok, please contact one of us if you want to help out</p>
<p>&lt;Rain&gt; Ok, org question, that I have mentioned before: IIP Signing key? (nag, nag)</p>
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<p>&lt;hifi&gt; IIP notification service :) for ppl to knoe I /him is online LOL</p>
<p>&lt;qriff&gt; just as a question for the qurious... what defines the holder for "Trent"...</p>
<p>&lt;qriff&gt; and what about channel/nick expiration...</p>
<p>&lt;qriff&gt; registration that is...</p>
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<p>&lt;jrand0m&gt; trent is a service, not a nick, so trent must have access to the</p>
<p> ircd (i think)</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; these questions are mids questions for trent, he's an abstract piece</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; yes jrand0m</p>
<p>&lt;jrand0m&gt; iip notification would be cool. how does anonymail do it?</p>
<p>&lt;jrand0m&gt; can clients send a /notify nick to the server and get a msg when</p>
<p> the nick joins?</p>
<p>&lt;hifi&gt; IIP SMS notification LOL</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; actually</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; we did have IIP SMS as the first version of anonymail</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; but it tended to flood</p>
<p>&lt;hifi&gt; oh</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; so now we do it as anonymail database delivery</p>
<p>&lt;hifi&gt; IIP invitation msg as signature to ordinary e-mails ...</p>
<p>&lt;hifi&gt; Kinda " Do yo Yahoo ? Get MSN free " stuff</p>
<p>&lt;jrand0m&gt; ooOOoo textAds</p>
<p>&lt;jrand0m&gt; but does iip need more users?</p>
<p>&lt;hifi&gt; oh</p>
<p>&lt;jrand0m&gt; or is getting more users just a "oh cool, lets service more people"?</p>
<p>&lt;hifi&gt; no</p>
<p>&lt;hifi&gt; dunno</p>
<p>&lt;hifi&gt; i just brainstorm</p>
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<p>&lt;hezekiah&gt; More people ... more ideas ... more volunteers</p>
<p>&lt;hifi&gt; IIP as world standart will be cool</p>
<p>&lt;hezekiah&gt; More people ... more problems ... more strain on the network ...</p>
<p>&lt;hezekiah&gt; ... more floods of #anonymous ...</p>
<p>&lt;hezekiah&gt; It's a two sided question.</p>
<p>&lt;hifi&gt; more channels lol</p>
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<p>&lt;hifi&gt; IIP Eugenics Program LOL Less Population Less Problems</p>
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<p>&lt;Addic&gt; hmm... going back to the notification question... is it so the /notify</p>
<p> nick does not work here? Or am I not understanding the question...</p>
<p>&lt;lonelynerd&gt; Addic: sure it works</p>
<p>&lt;Addic&gt; well what's the problem then?</p>
<p>&lt;hifi&gt; ?</p>
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<p>&lt;lonelynerd&gt; wasn't much following the conversation, but they talked about</p>
<p> having a /notify that wouldn't require the client to poll</p>
<p>&lt;Addic&gt; ok</p>
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<p>&lt;-- Rain has quit (I Quit)</p>
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<p>&lt;hezekiah&gt; Hmmm ...</p>
<p>&lt;hezekiah&gt; I think it's about time we adjurne this meeting.</p>
<p>&lt;hezekiah&gt; What do you say, nop?</p>
<p>* jrand0m thinks he fell asleep too</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; yeah</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; ok</p>
<p>&lt;nop&gt; later</p>
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<p>&lt;hezekiah&gt; Meeting adjurned! :)</p>
<p>&lt;hezekiah&gt; *BAF*!</p>
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