527 lines
34 KiB
HTML
527 lines
34 KiB
HTML
{% extends "_layout.html" %}
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{% block title %}I2P Development Meeting 15{% endblock %}
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{% block content %}
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<h3>I2P (invisiblenet) Development Meeting 15</h3>
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<div class="irclog">
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Courtesy of <a href="http://www.archive.org/">the wayback machine</a>.
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<p>
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<p>--- Log opened Tue Oct 15 23:31:29 2002
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<p>23:31 < logger> test
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<p>23:32 < mason> sorry, that test did not work
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<p>23:32 < mason> :)
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<p>23:32 -!- mode/#iip-dev [+o mids] by Trent
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<p>23:32 <@mids> Tue Oct 15 21:32:19 UTC 2002
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<p>23:32 <@mids> meeting starts in 1:30 hours
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<p>--- Day changed Wed Oct 16 2002
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<p>00:44 < geully> hi all
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<p>00:50 <@mids> Public IIP meeting in 10 minutes here
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<p>00:50 < Robert> Hello all.
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<p>00:51 <@mids> shhh
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<p>00:51 <@mids> not yet
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<p>00:51 <@mids> 9 more minutes
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<p>00:51 < Grishnav> lol
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<p>00:51 < al-jabr> Tue Oct 15 22:51:23 UTC 2002
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<p>00:51 * Robert zips his lip.
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<p>00:51 < al-jabr> lalala
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<p>00:53 -!- geully is now known as Geully
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<p>01:00 <@mids> Tue Oct 15 23:00:02 UTC 2002
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<p>01:00 <@mids> welcome to the n-th public IIP meeting
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<p>01:00 <@mids> logfiles are on http://mids.student.utwente.nl/~mids/iip/
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<p>01:00 < nop> hehe
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<p>01:00 <@mids> oh, 15th
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<p>01:00 < nop> 15th
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<p>01:00 < nop> yes
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<p>01:00 <@mids> agenda for today:
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<p>01:01 <@mids> - new IIP developer
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<p>01:01 <@mids> - IIP logo contest
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<p>01:01 <@mids> - bug fixes
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<p>01:01 <@mids> - question rounds
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<p>01:01 <@mids> ,
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<p>01:01 <@mids> .
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<p>01:01 < nop> ok
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<p>01:02 < nop> welcome back all
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<p>01:02 < nop> to another round of meetings ;)
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<p>01:02 < nop> for all that work in a corporate office
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<p>01:02 < nop> you have permission to sleep
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<p>01:02 < nop> ok
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<p>01:02 < nop> new IIP developer
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<p>01:02 -!- mode/#iip-dev [+o nop] by mids
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<p>01:02 <@nop> and is a talented and quick learning C programmer
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<p>01:02 -!- mode/#iip-dev [+o UserX] by mids
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<p>01:02 <@nop> and has already added some patches and some grunt work that was needed to the code
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<p>01:03 <@mids> hurray!
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<p>01:03 <@nop> we are glad to have him
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<p>01:03 <@nop> and we feel that he will be an essential part of the team
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<p>01:03 * al-jabr claps
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<p>01:03 <@nop> ok
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<p>01:03 <@nop> next on list
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<p>01:03 <@nop> IIP logo contest
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<p>01:03 <@nop> any graphix designers etc
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<p>01:03 <@mids> graphix? you mean graphics?
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<p>01:04 < Grishnav> No, he means graphix :P
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<p>01:04 < hobbs> nop: maybe. Me or my mom. She's good, and she got a tablet recently. :)
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<p>01:04 <@nop> who would like to come up with a cool slogan and/or logo for invisiblenet, and IIP (yes I mean graphics) for t-shirts can submit their entries to iip@invisiblenet.net
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<p>01:04 <@nop> the winner
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<p>01:04 <@nop> will win a free t-shirt
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<p>01:04 <@nop> black or white
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<p>01:04 <@nop> of his choice
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<p>01:04 <@nop> or her choice
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<p>01:04 <@mids> woohoo!
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<p>01:04 <@nop> and 10.00 DRAN
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<p>01:04 < hobbs> nice.
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<p>01:05 <@nop> this can definitely include slogans as well
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<p>01:05 <@nop> so there could be two winners
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<p>01:05 <@nop> if one comes up with logo
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<p>01:05 -!- mode/#iip-dev [+o Chocolate] by mids
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<p>01:05 <@nop> and one comes up with an awesome slogan
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<p>01:05 -!- mode/#iip-dev [+o Chocolate] by Trent
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<p>01:05 <@nop> but submit to iip@invisiblenet.net
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<p>01:05 <@nop> and they will be reviewed
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<p>01:05 <@nop> I hope that if you're not a graphics guy, that you can tell a friend
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<p>01:05 <@nop> and maybe split the profits
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<p>01:05 <@nop> ;)
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<p>01:06 <@nop> because we would like to have cool shirts
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<p>01:06 <@nop> for the e-store
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<p>01:06 <@nop> and in general
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<p>01:06 <@nop> as well
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<p>01:06 <@nop> for bumper stickers etc
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<p>01:06 <@nop> maybe a mascot would be good too
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<p>01:06 <@mids> :)
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<p>01:06 <@nop> either way
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<p>01:06 <@nop> do what you can
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<p>01:06 <@nop> submit them
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<p>01:06 <@nop> and we'll decide at the end of the month
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<p>01:06 < philocs> our only mascot is satan
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<p>01:06 <@nop> well
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<p>01:06 <@nop> that's taken
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<p>01:06 <@nop> BSD
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<p>01:06 <@nop> ;)
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<p>01:07 < philocs> we could make a scarier satan
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<p>01:07 < hobbs> that's a DAEMON!
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<p>01:07 <@nop> hehe
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<p>01:07 <@Chocolate> black
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<p>01:07 <@nop> ok
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<p>01:07 <@nop> next
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<p>01:07 <@nop> bugfixes
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<p>01:07 <@Chocolate> tshirt must be black
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<p>01:07 <@nop> ok
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<p>01:07 <@nop> yeah
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<p>01:07 <@nop> all artist must make inversed drawings
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<p>01:07 <@nop> so that it caters to black or white backgrounds
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<p>01:07 <@nop> and you can use color :)
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<p>01:07 <@nop> oh
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<p>01:07 <@nop> and the winner
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<p>01:08 < nemesis> http://www.stk.com/products/50_beta/about50.cfm
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<p>01:08 <@nop> will of course get full credit by having his logo on the t-shirt
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<p>01:08 < nemesis> nice
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<p>01:08 * al-jabr fears that this T-shirt may be hopelessly dorky
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<p>01:08 <@mids> al-jabr: make a better one
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<p>01:08 <@mids> okay...
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<p>01:08 <@mids> next poing?
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<p>01:09 <@mids> point :)
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<p>01:09 <@mids> beeing: bugfixes
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<p>01:09 <@mids> UserX fixed even more bugs then reported
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<p>01:09 <@mids> there are still a few (possible) bugs out there..
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<p>01:09 <@mids> if you found some that aren't mentioned
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<p>01:09 <@mids> please tell us
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<p>01:10 < al-jabr> I personally couldn't replicate the terminal bug, unless that was something in CVS
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<p>01:10 <@mids> without bugreports we cant fix
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<p>01:10 <@nop> neither could i
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<p>01:10 <@mids> al-jabr: I have had it in the past; but couldn't repeat
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<p>01:10 <@mids> I'll ask Jeekay for more details
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<p>01:10 < philocs> where do I find list of outstanding bugs?
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<p>01:11 <@nop> well everyone is encouraged to use the sourceforge bug tracker
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<p>01:11 <@nop> but most people don't
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<p>01:11 <@nop> ;)
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<p>01:11 < philocs> bug tracker is good
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<p>01:11 <@nop> we should probably link to that on our main site
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<p>01:11 <@mids> http://www.sourceforge.net/projects/invisibleip/
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<p>01:11 <@nop> for a bug submital
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<p>01:11 < firegod> too bad it doesnt have an IRC frontend (:
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<p>01:11 <@mids> most bugs are mailed to the iip-dev mailinglist though
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<p>01:11 < philocs> ok I just subscribed yesterday
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<p>01:11 <@mids> cool
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<p>01:12 < nemesis> cause the logo, whate resolution? and dpi ?
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<p>01:13 <@nop> any one knowing graphix have a suggestion for resolution and dpi?
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<p>01:13 < firegod> start big
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<p>01:13 < firegod> it can be resized
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<p>01:13 <@nop> ok
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<p>01:13 <@nop> kewl
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<p>01:13 < firegod> down if needed
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<p>01:13 < nemesis> -e
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<p>01:13 < firegod> it is much more difficult going the other way (:
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<p>01:13 < nemesis> hehe
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<p>01:13 < nemesis> firegod
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<p>01:13 < nemesis> something
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<p>01:14 < hobbs> nop: would you be interested in having it in a vector graphics format, if that just happens to be how it's done?
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<p>01:14 < firegod> always good to have high res masters
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<p>01:14 < nemesis> 10 megapixels
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<p>01:14 <@nop> svg?
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<p>01:14 < nemesis> 72dpi
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<p>01:14 < hobbs> (not that I even own a vector program, but somebody might care)
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<p>01:14 < nemesis> or 1000 ?
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<p>01:14 < nemesis> ;)
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<p>01:14 < nemesis> very dificult
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<p>01:14 < nemesis> +f
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<p>01:15 < firegod> sure, if they are creative..
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<p>01:15 < firegod> but svg isnt widly used just yet
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<p>01:15 < al-jabr> Question: I'm patching IIP to use /dev/random. Would you be interested in incorporating this? I'm doing it #ifdef linux for until I or someone configurifies the source.
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<p>01:15 < firegod> so standard raster formats would be more usable atm
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<p>01:15 < firegod> al-jabr: finish the patch and submit it to the mailing list
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<p>01:15 <@nop> al-jar
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<p>01:15 < al-jabr> okay
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<p>01:15 < hobbs> al-jabr: I'd suggest making it #ifdef SOME_FLAG_THAT_CAN_GO_IN_MAKEFILE
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<p>01:15 < al-jabr> yeah
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<p>01:16 < al-jabr> will do
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<p>01:16 < hobbs> (and have a well-commented DFLAGS line in Makefile)
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<p>01:16 <@nop> yarrow is a very good prng
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<p>01:16 <@nop> it's known to be secure
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<p>01:16 <@nop> and we have done a test with our randomness via chi-square
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<p>01:16 < al-jabr> nop: I believe yarrow would be redundard when we have /dev/urandom
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<p>01:16 <@nop> and it got 25% which is good
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<p>01:16 <@nop> yes, but yarrow is portable
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<p>01:16 <@nop> and known to be stronger
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<p>01:16 <@mids> al-jabr: the problem is that not all operating systems have a good implementation for /dev/random
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<p>01:16 < firegod> not at all
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<p>01:17 <@nop> I would rather rely on what a cryptography expert developed
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<p>01:17 <@nop> then the /dev/random on the machines
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<p>01:17 < hobbs> true. A -DUSE_DEV_RANDOM might end up being useful, or it might just hurt a lot of people who don't know what they're doing.
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<p>01:17 <@mids> otoh, giving the more modular future of IIP, maybe several alternatives could be an option
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<p>01:17 < hobbs> and not the best odds on the first. :)
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<p>01:17 <@nop> yes
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<p>01:17 <@nop> and we do plan to add more entropy in the future
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<p>01:18 < al-jabr> Well, linux /dev/random and /dev/urandom are some of the most scrutinized crypto out there... I'm mostly thinking of that because it's a very good entropy pool that's out there on very many machines running IIP
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<p>01:18 <@nop> to increase this
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<p>01:18 < firegod> general question: with iip2 are we going to have more feedback from the proxy?
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<p>01:18 < al-jabr> you wouldn't have to go querying the user for entropy.
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<p>01:18 <@nop> yes firegod
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<p>01:18 <@nop> well you usually don't
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<p>01:18 <@nop> but it's definitely added plus
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<p>01:18 <@nop> if there isn't enough
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<p>01:18 <@nop> it will query
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<p>01:19 <@nop> and we will probably look into adding a form of /dev/random entropy very soon
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<p>01:19 < hobbs> does linux /dev/random support O_NONBLOCK ?
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<p>01:19 <@nop> because we intend on really strengthening the pool
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<p>01:19 <@nop> I'm sure it does hobbs
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<p>01:19 <@nop> /dev/random let's you select your pool size
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<p>01:19 < hobbs> nop: yeah, but there's a softlimit, and a hardlimit in the kernel, and the hardlimit isn't that big.
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<p>01:19 <@nop> al-jabr it would be best to hold off
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<p>01:19 < al-jabr> nop: personally I'd trust linux more, which uses SHA1 and uses all kinds of hardware sources of entropy, than a newbie who might just go entering 'aaaaaaaaaa...' but anyway it's only an option
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<p>01:20 <@nop> al-jabr
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<p>01:20 < al-jabr> ok
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<p>01:20 <@nop> thats not all the entropy
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<p>01:20 <@nop> there is more
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<p>01:20 <@nop> there are network timings, and dh calculation timings as well
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<p>01:20 < al-jabr> but it only has access to user-mode entropy
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<p>01:20 <@nop> and we plan to add more
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<p>01:20 < al-jabr> why reinvent the wheel. i recommend using /dev/random and for those who don't have it, EGD.
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<p>01:20 <@mids> nop: would it harm to give al-jabr a try, and maybe use it as plugin for entropy?
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<p>01:20 < al-jabr> since the GPG and linux people are doing it
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<p>01:21 <@mids> nop: alww
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<p>01:21 < al-jabr> why don't we concentrate on doing what we do best?
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<p>01:21 <@nop> that's fine
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<p>01:21 <@mids> nop: always good to have alternatives around
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<p>01:21 <@nop> if you want to submit a patch
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<p>01:21 <@nop> please do
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<p>01:21 <@nop> I'm not against it
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<p>01:21 <@nop> and we definitely want to add more entropy
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<p>01:21 < philocs> is the darwin /dev/random good? is it the same one in linux or openbsd?
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<p>01:21 <@nop> so please submit it to iip-dev when you've added it
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<p>01:21 < firegod> thats what mailing lists are for, people can digest it better
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<p>01:22 < al-jabr> okay, will do.
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<p>01:22 <@nop> thnx
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<p>01:22 <@nop> is that all?
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<p>01:22 <@nop> no more questions?
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<p>01:22 <@mids> hehe
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<p>01:22 <@nop> or suggestions
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<p>01:22 <@nop> or complaints
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<p>01:22 < nemesis> hm..
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<p>01:22 < philocs> I have a dumb newbie question ...
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<p>01:22 <@nop> sure
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<p>01:22 < firegod> well. release dates?
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<p>01:22 < nemesis> cache in the nodes
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<p>01:22 <@mids> sjoet
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<p>01:22 <@nop> oh oh on
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<p>01:22 <@nop> that wasn't on the list
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<p>01:22 <@nop> but
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<p>01:23 <@nop> we are at this time working on a short term todo list
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<p>01:23 <@nop> that will be publicized
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<p>01:23 < philocs> if someone hacks a relay to log, does that mean they can see the trafic for private channels that go through it?
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<p>01:23 <@nop> no
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<p>01:23 <@mids> philocs: all traffic is encrypted node-node and end-end
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<p>01:23 < philocs> ok, so you can only get the cleartext at the server, right?
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<p>01:23 < firegod> but not contextually withing IRC
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<p>01:23 <@nop> right
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<p>01:24 < firegod> right
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<p>01:24 < firegod> and the client
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<p>01:24 <@mids> philocs: correct
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<p>01:24 <@nop> yes
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<p>01:24 < philocs> good
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<p>01:24 < firegod> how far are you from encrypted channels?
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<p>01:24 < hobbs> and the client -- well, can only see stuff that's actually sent to it.
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<p>01:24 <@mids> firegod: nop is working on a roadmap and syncing it with the developers (if I understood well)
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<p>01:24 < nemesis> add an multicast option for filetransfers, when one user, will send the same file to some multiple clients
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<p>01:24 < hobbs> which means, if you don't even know that a channel exists, then you can't (intentionally or accidentally) snoop it.
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<p>01:24 <@nop> firegod it will be done when we decentralize
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<p>01:24 <@nop> which is our next goal
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<p>01:25 <@nop> after 1.1 stable
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<p>01:25 < nemesis> that the nodes between the nodes cache it
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<p>01:25 < firegod> okay. roadmap.
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<p>01:25 < hobbs> nemesis: actually.... that's worth thinking about -- talk to chocolate. :)
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<p>01:25 < philocs> is there an advantage to having "channel key encryption" before decentralization?
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<p>01:25 <@mids> nemesis: well, filetransfer isnt implemented in IIP itself anyway
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<p>01:25 < nemesis> lol
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<p>01:25 < firegod> hobbs: well, knowing about a channel is easy
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<p>01:25 <@mids> nemesis: it CAN do multicast, just send it to a channel :)
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<p>01:25 < hobbs> nemesis: it should be possible to add a hack to fileserv to have it use a channel, and then anyone who wants to receive just joins. :)
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<p>01:25 < hobbs> firegod: oh, is it?
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<p>01:25 < nemesis> what can you do with an anonymous network
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<p>01:26 < nemesis> when you can share code?
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<p>01:26 < nemesis> whats about some c code?
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<p>01:26 < firegod> multicast is a problem due to not spectacular widespread support..
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<p>01:26 <@mids> philocs: yes, I'd think so... less trust needed on the server
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<p>01:26 < nemesis> when the complet internet are banned for open source?
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<p>01:26 < hobbs> firegod: not multicast IP, just "multicast" :)
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<p>01:26 < firegod> hobbs: re fileserv channel: that gives you encrypted channels btw (:
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<p>01:26 < nemesis> how you can share this information?
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<p>01:26 < hobbs> firegod: oh, how's that?
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<p>01:27 < nemesis> <hobbs> nemesis: it should be possible to add a hack to fileserv to have it use a channel, and then anyone who wants to receive just joins. :)
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<p>01:27 < firegod> hobbs: sure, if you join IIP at all it is simple to /list the channels
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<p>01:27 < nemesis> not a hack
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<p>01:27 < philocs> I might start thinking about some 'channel key encryption'. it doesn't seem like it would be terribly complicated thing to me, just keep private keys in some directory maybe
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<p>01:27 < nemesis> built in
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<p>01:27 < nemesis> and an "server node" option
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<p>01:27 < nemesis> to allow that
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<p>01:27 < nemesis> or not
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<p>01:27 <@mids> philocs: you could implement it client side...
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<p>01:27 < hobbs> nemesis: okay, I'm just behind the times. I haven't worked on fileserv for... months
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<p>01:27 < nemesis> and an option for the cache size for it
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<p>01:27 <@mids> philocs: look at the blowfish.pl scripts for irssi and xchat
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<p>01:27 < firegod> philocs: and perl plugins on clients
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<p>01:27 <@mids> s/blowfish/blowjob/
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<p>01:28 < philocs> mids: would it make sense to implement it in the client side of isproxy?
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<p>01:28 <@mids> nemesis: caching wouldnt make much sense when everything goes still through the central ircd
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<p>01:28 < philocs> that way it would work with all clients
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<p>01:28 < nemesis> <mids> nemesis: caching wouldnt make much sense when everything goes still through the central ircd
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<p>01:28 <@mids> philocs: maybe; but that would require the 'vircd'
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<p>01:28 < nemesis> i think there are planned to be an p2p network?
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<p>01:28 < nemesis> and then theres no central hub
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<p>01:28 <@mids> nemesis: for IIP 2
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<p>01:29 < nemesis> only some nodes
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<p>01:29 < nemesis> where cache the datas
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<p>01:29 <@mids> nemesis: but that is long term; first IIP 1.2
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<p>01:29 < philocs> nemesis: I think you want freenet maybe
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<p>01:29 < nemesis> no
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<p>01:29 < philocs> p2p file transfers with caching
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<p>01:29 < nemesis> only an option to share some public files
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<p>01:29 < nemesis> or larger text
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<p>01:29 < philocs> thats what freenet does
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<p>01:29 < firegod> any merging of namespace possible between freenet and iip?
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<p>01:29 < nemesis> that you don'*t copy it line for line in the channel /query
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<p>01:29 < hobbs> what sits on top of the IIPv2 network could be a lot of interesting things -- but that's a while off. :)
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<p>01:29 <@mids> nemesis: first we would need decentralized routing...
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<p>01:30 < nemesis> k
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<p>01:30 < firegod> every isproxy was a freenet node?
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<p>01:30 < nemesis> but don't forget it ;)
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<p>01:30 < philocs> I don't think it makes sense to cannabalize freenet ...
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<p>01:30 <@mids> nemesis: once we have that; ask again :)
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<p>01:30 < firegod> philocs: does it do the job?
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<p>01:30 < nemesis> lol
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<p>01:30 <@mids> philocs: giving recent freenet-shit; I'd say no, indeed it doesn't
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<p>01:30 < firegod> philocs: and I like 'incorporate' a bit better
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<p>01:30 < hobbs> it should be possible to write a mini-freenet on top of IIP... but it would be better to leave freenet at what it does, and take advantage of the high speed and "pushiness" of IIP to write even better things.
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<p>01:30 < nemesis> in how many years? *fg*
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<p>01:31 < firegod> alright (:
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<p>01:31 < firegod> people do want to exchange chunks of binary data thru their messaging clients, in this case IIP
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<p>01:31 < firegod> how will that be addressed?
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<p>01:31 < philocs> firegod: well, I think it does the job well, and it will only get better. yes I agree that it would be better to have iip implement the freenet protocol for freenet type things rather than make something incompatible
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<p>01:31 < hobbs> for example, IIPv2 should be able to support the niftiest "anonymail" anyone's ever seen (without a bot), unless I'm hallucinating. :)
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<p>01:31 < nemesis> hm..
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<p>01:32 < nemesis> hacker ethic
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<p>01:32 < nemesis> the slogon
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<p>01:32 < nemesis> for..
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<p>01:32 < nemesis> miiiids!!
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<p>01:32 <@mids> hobbs: IIPv2 will be so smart that it could do your math homework
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<p>01:32 < hobbs> that's good, 'cause I don't do mine often enough.
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<p>01:32 < philocs> speaking of which
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<p>01:33 <@UserX> firegod: the intention is to do a DCC emulation using Freenet as the transport for files
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<p>01:33 < Grishnav> Sorry if this has already been suggested, I've missed much of the conversation being in and out of the room, but how about some sort of API for IIP to create modules? After IIP gets completely distributed (with v2) you could have all sorts of interesting modules pop up... a file transfer mod, perhaps a freenet node mod if you only wanted one service running...
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<p>01:33 < firegod> UserX: that'll work (:
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<p>01:33 < philocs> UserX: I think that is the best solution
|
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<p>01:33 < hobbs> Grishnav: that's more or less the plan, as I understand it. And if it's not, we'll beat nop with halibut until it is.
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<p>01:33 < Grishnav> lol
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<p>01:34 < firegod> UserX: but if IIPv2 is decenteralized, would this dcc emulation need freenet? you already can do point multipoint point transfers, you just need a session handshake for that kind of transfer
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<p>01:34 < firegod> albiet dcc
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<p>01:34 < nemesis> waaaaaaaaaah
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<p>01:34 < philocs> plus if every iip user was running some sort of freenet implementation, that would make freenet much better
|
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<p>01:34 < nemesis> ardvark
|
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<p>01:34 < nemesis> grrrrrr
|
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<p>01:34 < nemesis> where is he?
|
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<p>01:34 < nemesis> where can speak german?
|
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<p>01:34 < hobbs> also, it should be (more) convenient to have multiple IIPv2 networks, but I think that's a given. :)
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<p>01:34 < nemesis> or known only a little bit german
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<p>01:34 < firegod> philocs: thats what I'm saying (:
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<p>01:34 < nemesis> and have the english hacker ethic?
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<p>01:34 < firegod> whos working on IIPv2?
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<p>01:35 < philocs> I need to go study for my german test soon
|
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<p>01:35 < philocs> firegod: are you left handed or in oz or something?
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<p>01:35 <@mids> hm, ppl; I got to go; keep chatting here
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<p>01:35 <@mids> bbl
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<p>01:35 < nemesis> hrhr
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<p>01:35 < nemesis> mids!!!
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<p>01:35 < firegod> philocs: nope, just a freak
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<p>01:35 < nemesis> don't drunk to much ;p
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<p>01:35 < nemesis> *fg*
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<p>01:36 < firegod> mids is working on IIPv2 I'm sure, anyone else? UserX?
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<p>01:36 < nemesis> nop
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<p>01:36 <@UserX> firegod: in theory yes. but currently we want to keep IIP low bandwidth. freenet would me suited transfering large volumes of data (and better because it doesn't have a constraint of realtime routing that IIP needs)
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<p>01:36 < nemesis> i think
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<p>01:36 <@nop> yes
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<p>01:36 < nemesis> aaaaaah
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<p>01:36 < nemesis> nop
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<p>01:36 < philocs> I guess what is really needed is for someone to write a C implementation of freenet ...
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<p>01:36 < firegod> UserX: this is true.
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<p>01:37 < firegod> UserX: or at least an opt-in on that feature
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<p>01:37 <@UserX> firegod: yes i am working v2
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<p>01:37 < hobbs> philocs: I agreed with that pretty heavily a few months ago, but right now I'm happy to let java fred do its thing, and settle down, before anyone clones.
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<p>01:37 < hobbs> (now that it _works_, that is)
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<p>01:37 < firegod> UserX: how have you solved scaling issues for resource location? ie: how do you find nodes originating #channels?
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<p>01:37 < philocs> UserX: yes well thats a good reason to not make it easy for people to do 'dcc' and to encourage them to use freenet
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<p>01:38 < firegod> philocs: it should just be opt-in.. people wanting to abuse their bandwidth, can go right ahead.. those on modems dont get killed (:
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<p>01:38 < hobbs> UserX: would be nice to keep in mind, though, that freenet is good at pulling things, and iip is good at pushing things. :)
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<p>01:38 < philocs> hobbs: well I agree, I think the java version is fine but if we are going to basically package freenet with iip somehow then eventually (and probably when freenet hits 1.0?) we will want a c implementation
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<p>01:38 < firegod> philocs: those wanting freenet backed features, change a setting and BLAM it just works
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<p>01:38 <@UserX> firegod: haven't worked out highly scalable system yet
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<p>01:39 < firegod> hobbs: IIP is a great way of grouping freenet keys (:
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<p>01:39 < hobbs> philocs: that's some pretty long thinking. :)
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<p>01:39 < firegod> UserX: ah. If you havnt peaked at Circle, I encourage you to (:
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<p>01:39 < firegod> I know mids said he'd played with it
|
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<p>01:39 < philocs> hobbs: well freenet is getting more stable all the time
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<p>01:40 < youkai> yeah, i would never run freenet as long as its only java
|
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<p>01:40 < firegod> theres a slogan for ya d-:
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<p>01:40 < firegod> "getting more stable every day"
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<p>01:40 < youkai> too bulky
|
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<p>01:41 < philocs> youkai: its not too bad
|
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<p>01:41 < youkai> plus i think its shitty to have os software that only compiles on a corp owned language
|
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<p>01:41 < Grishnav> I don't like Java anymore than the next guy, but I certainly am a freenet fan. I'll use the java one, but only until I hear about a C implementation. :)
|
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<p>01:42 < youkai> i mean if you guys were using the os non sun java i wouldent mind as much
|
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<p>01:42 < youkai> ah yes
|
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<p>01:42 < youkai> blackdown
|
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<p>01:42 < hobbs> youkai: freenet works fine on a few flavors of non-sun java.
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<p>01:42 < hobbs> blackdown has sun behind it.
|
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<p>01:42 < youkai> you just cant win with java then :/
|
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<p>01:42 < firegod> so?
|
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<p>01:42 < youkai> i dont trust sun any more then i do microsoft
|
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<p>01:43 < firegod> java is not your friend (:
|
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<p>01:43 < Grishnav> Does anyone have a link to the souce download for Blackdown? (Their site is less than helpful)
|
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<p>01:43 < firegod> I encourage those who are disatisfied with java, to try phthon for their scripting needs (it is NOT java)
|
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<p>01:43 < youkai> yeah python is cool
|
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<p>01:44 < youkai> but i dident stop running m$ operating systems just so i could let another corp in the door (sun)
|
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<p>01:44 < hobbs> Grishnav: er. It's in "non-free" for a reason, isn't it?
|
|
<p>01:44 < philocs> you are wanting me to write freenet in python? would a python module be distributed with iip?
|
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<p>01:44 < Grishnav> Ahh... I was under the impression is was free. my mistake.
|
|
<p>01:45 < youkai> thats the only problem i have with freenet
|
|
<p>01:45 < philocs> java is not evil, sun treats java differently than MS treats windows
|
|
<p>01:45 < hobbs> Grishnav: no. If you ask sun, it's impossible to create a free java2 implementation, and they've done a good job of making it true.
|
|
<p>01:45 < youkai> i mean java is a lot easier to code in because you dont have to worry about memory leaks and stuff as much
|
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<p>01:45 < Grishnav> rofl
|
|
<p>01:45 < youkai> the garbage collector lets you be lazy
|
|
<p>01:45 < philocs> hobbs: why is it impossible?
|
|
<p>01:45 < Grishnav> [16:45] <youkai> i mean java is a lot easier to code in because you dont have to worry about memory leaks and stuff as much -- yeah, it's no wonder that all java apps are so goddamn memory hoggy!!
|
|
<p>01:46 < youkai> yeah thats because they need the whole jre loaded in memory with the software
|
|
<p>01:46 < hobbs> philocs: because if you write anything that's java2, and claims to be "java", then sun will destroy you. :)
|
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<p>01:46 < philocs> hobbs: yes but you can make java, just don't call it 'java'
|
|
<p>01:46 < hobbs> er... without obtaining the appropriate license and signing the appropriate agreements first, that is. :)
|
|
<p>01:46 < Grishnav> call it coffee
|
|
<p>01:46 < philocs> kaffe
|
|
<p>01:46 < Grishnav> hehe
|
|
<p>01:46 < Grishnav> yeah
|
|
<p>01:47 < Grishnav> I've played with Kaffe
|
|
<p>01:47 < hobbs> philocs: true. But nobody's done it.
|
|
<p>01:47 < Grishnav> not quite mature enough yet, but getting there
|
|
<p>01:47 < philocs> hobbs: uh yes, the FSF has done it
|
|
<p>01:47 < hobbs> philocs: oh?
|
|
<p>01:47 < philocs> yes
|
|
<p>01:47 < youkai> but seriously i think java is right up there with VB
|
|
<p>01:47 < philocs> Kaffe
|
|
<p>01:47 < hobbs> philocs: Kaffe is not java2.
|
|
<p>01:47 < youkai> its for lazy programmers
|
|
<p>01:47 < youkai> who dont mind being owned by a corp
|
|
<p>01:47 < philocs> hobbs: but there is no reason it could not implement java2
|
|
<p>01:47 < hobbs> philocs: except for the fact that it doesn't.
|
|
<p>01:47 < philocs> plus gccj or whatever its called
|
|
<p>01:48 < hobbs> er...
|
|
<p>01:48 < youkai> the other thing is java2 is huge, and they have a gigantic team of programmers working on it all the time
|
|
<p>01:48 < hobbs> yeah. gcj/gij are also nice.
|
|
<p>01:48 < firegod> not to interupt, but java wars work out better in apropriatly named channels (:
|
|
<p>01:48 < philocs> hobbs: but its not a legal issue, the java spec is an open standard, the java name is not
|
|
<p>01:48 < youkai> gcj?
|
|
<p>01:48 < philocs> youkai: gcc that compiles java code
|
|
<p>01:48 < youkai> huh
|
|
<p>01:49 < youkai> to binary or does it still need a jre
|
|
<p>01:49 < philocs> binary I believe
|
|
<p>01:49 < hobbs> philocs: that's a pretty heavy restriction, though.
|
|
<p>01:49 < hobbs> You can't say: this is java, this is compatible with java, or this smells like java.
|
|
<p>01:49 < philocs> hobbs: well I don't think so. You can make the claim that 'this software is not java, but you will probably find that it works the same'
|
|
<p>01:50 < philocs> which most people would understand
|
|
<p>01:50 < hobbs> probably.
|
|
<p>01:50 < youkai> anyway, why rewrite java when you could just use c++
|
|
<p>01:50 < youkai> its almost the same language
|
|
<p>01:51 < philocs> arg, I would rather use java over c++
|
|
<p>01:51 < philocs> but I'm not getting into that
|
|
<p>01:51 < philocs> anyway, I forgot where this horrible diatribe started
|
|
<p>01:51 < hobbs> youkai: not really. c++ doesn't force you to use OO crap when it's completely inappropriate, like java does. :)
|
|
<p>01:51 < firegod> round and round we go, where we stop nobody knows
|
|
<p>01:51 < firegod> philocs: exactly
|
|
<p>01:51 < philocs> ok, so in isproxy, is there like a client side and a node side?
|
|
<p>01:52 < firegod> philocs: you know how many times I've seen this exact same 'argument' ? (:
|
|
<p>01:52 < youkai> hobbs: hah
|
|
<p>01:52 < firegod> philocs: there are relays, and proxys and 'servers'
|
|
<p>01:52 < firegod> as I see it
|
|
<p>01:52 <@UserX> philocs: can you clarify your question?
|
|
<p>01:52 < philocs> I mean, would it make sense to put channel key encryption in isproxy, the part that actually talks to the irc client on 6667?
|
|
<p>01:52 < hobbs> philocs: sorta. there are nodes, and there are nodes. :)
|
|
<p>01:52 < firegod> philocs: dont forget you have multiple clients for each isproxy
|
|
<p>01:53 < hobbs> and nodes 1) talk to clients 2) talk to nodes 3) (one of them) talks to the server.
|
|
<p>01:53 < philocs> firegod: really? I've never been able to see this behavior, actually maybe its just my configuration
|
|
<p>01:53 < firegod> (:
|
|
<p>01:54 < philocs> but anyway, does my question make sense?
|
|
<p>01:54 < youkai> i just came here to beg you guys not to write the next ver of iip in java :D
|
|
<p>01:54 < firegod> which question d-:
|
|
<p>01:54 < firegod> youkai: i think thats a given
|
|
<p>01:54 <@UserX> philocs: currently IIP 1.x is essentially a tunnel. having the client implement channel encryption would require a lot of work to do. and would become redunant when v2 gets done
|
|
<p>01:54 < youkai> also if theres freenet people around, a c++ ver would be nice
|
|
<p>01:55 < firegod> UserX: how about isproxy functioning as an http tunnel?
|
|
<p>01:55 < firegod> UserX: IIPv2 as well?
|
|
<p>01:55 < nemesis> <youkai> i just came here to beg you guys not to write the next ver of iip in java :D
|
|
<p>01:55 < nemesis> noooooo
|
|
<p>01:56 < philocs> I'm thinking that you could have it so that there ways like a 'keys/' directory and then you could have in that 'channel.key' or something and then just run blowfish or whatever on what goes in and out of that channel, understand?
|
|
<p>01:56 < nemesis> native code are the best thing
|
|
<p>01:56 < philocs> and fuck c++, I'll take java over c++ anyday
|
|
<p>01:56 < philocs> but I also think that c is nice
|
|
<p>01:57 <@UserX> firegod: 1.x could be used to tunnel to a single fixed HTTP server
|
|
<p>01:57 < firegod> okay, enough language wars please?
|
|
<p>01:57 < nemesis> m$ sponsored his .net campain, and will place his IL on the front
|
|
<p>01:57 < youkai> k :D
|
|
<p>01:57 < firegod> User: hrmm
|
|
<p>01:57 < nemesis> you can controll the compiller
|
|
<p>01:57 < philocs> youkai keeps brining it up, if he likes c++ so much, he should marry it
|
|
<p>01:57 < nemesis> thats the different
|
|
<p>01:57 < firegod> oh jebus
|
|
<p>01:57 < youkai> heh philocs: if you like java so much you should go work for sun
|
|
<p>01:57 < nemesis> can't
|
|
<p>01:58 < philocs> UserX: would that make sense or is it better to wait for next version to do that?
|
|
<p>02:00 < youkai> UserX: thats a good idea
|
|
<p>02:00 <@UserX> philocs: to do that with 1.x network would require giving nodes the intelligence to read and parse recompose IRC client messages/commands
|
|
<p>02:01 < philocs> oh I see
|
|
<p>02:01 < nemesis> <UserX> philocs: to do that with 1.x network would require giving nodes the intelligence to read and parse recompose IRC client messages/commands
|
|
<p>02:01 < nemesis> xml ;)
|
|
<p>02:01 <@UserX> it's possible but would take a fair amount of effort which i want to put into v2
|
|
<p>02:01 < nemesis> very flexible
|
|
<p>02:01 < philocs> I understand
|
|
<p>02:02 < philocs> later
|
|
<p>02:11 < logger> logging ended
|
|
<p>--- Log closed Wed Oct 16 02:11:14 2002
|
|
</div>
|
|
{% endblock %}
|