477 lines
37 KiB
HTML
477 lines
37 KiB
HTML
{% extends "_layout.html" %}
|
|
{% block title %}I2P Development Meeting 66{% endblock %}
|
|
{% block content %}<h3>Tuesday, November 26, 2003 22:00:00 CET</h3>
|
|
<div class="irclog">
|
|
<p>[22:04] <jrand0m> agenda: </p>
|
|
<p>[22:04] <jrand0m> 0) welcome </p>
|
|
<p>[22:04] <jrand0m> 1) status </p>
|
|
<p>[22:04] <jrand0m> 2) transport futures </p>
|
|
<p>[22:05] <jrand0m> 3) peer stats for selection </p>
|
|
<p>[22:05] <jrand0m> 4) apps </p>
|
|
<p>[22:05] <jrand0m> 5) ...? </p>
|
|
<p>[22:05] <jrand0m> 0) </p>
|
|
<p>[22:05] <jrand0m> hi. </p>
|
|
<p>[22:05] <jrand0m> 66 is it? </p>
|
|
<p>[22:05] <duck> 7) what brand of whiskey does jrand0m drink?</p>
|
|
<p>[22:06] <jrand0m> bushmills, glenlivit </p>
|
|
<p>[22:06] <jrand0m> (for whiskey and whisky, respectively) </p>
|
|
<p>[22:06] <TC> yey, i made the meating</p>
|
|
<p>[22:06] <jrand0m> woot </p>
|
|
<p>[22:06] <jrand0m> ok, 1) status </p>
|
|
<p>[22:06] <jrand0m> the kademlia stuff is coming along very well. </p>
|
|
<p>[22:07] <jrand0m> I've build a little simulator that runs a network of five nodes and puts them through the basic tests </p>
|
|
<p>[22:07] <jrand0m> also the idn stuff is implemented with some tests as well </p>
|
|
<p>[22:08] <jrand0m> the last two days or so have been focused on making sure the kademlia code works for both idn and for the i2p netdb, which has caused a bunch of changes </p>
|
|
<p>[22:09] <jrand0m> actually, the big change is that I'm forcing myself to be practical and make the kademlia code work first with the netDb and /then/ think about the idn stuff. </p>
|
|
<p>[22:10] <jrand0m> idn right now is kind of functional, except for inter-node comm (which will be replaced with comm over i2p, of course ;) </p>
|
|
<p>[22:10] <TC> idn is the stuff for the distributed storage?</p>
|
|
<p>[22:10] <jrand0m> roadmap has been updated as well - http://wiki.invisiblenet.net/iip-wiki?I2PRoadmap </p>
|
|
<p>[22:10] <jrand0m> yes </p>
|
|
<p>[22:10] <jrand0m> idn = Invisible Distribution Network </p>
|
|
<p>[22:10] <jrand0m> (free open source anonymous akamai, basically) </p>
|
|
<p>[22:11] <TC> is there a non anonymous public akamai implemintation i could play with?</p>
|
|
<p>[22:11] *** leenookx (~leenookx@anon.iip) has joined channel #iip-dev</p>
|
|
<p>[22:12] <jrand0m> mnet is probably up that alley </p>
|
|
<p>[22:12] *** Signoff: nickthief60934 (Excess Flood)</p>
|
|
<p>[22:12] <jrand0m> before I jump back into the router completely, I'm planning on leaving the idn code in a state that /hopefully/ someone would be able to jump in and make that into a usable app. </p>
|
|
<p>[22:13] *** dm (~sd@anon.iip) has joined channel #iip-dev</p>
|
|
<p>[22:14] *** nickthief60934 (~chatzilla@anon.iip) has joined channel #iip-dev</p>
|
|
<p>[22:14] <jrand0m> if you see the roadmap, kademlia has been pushed into the 0.2.2 release. in addition, there are also two big outstanding things that I hope to have in there, fixing a pair of bugs that do annoying things </p>
|
|
<p>[22:14] <TC> would it be posible do image grabs do idn from an i2ptunnel eepsite?</p>
|
|
<p>[22:15] <jrand0m> hmm? </p>
|
|
<p>[22:15] <jrand0m> oh, like <img src="idn:blah">? </p>
|
|
<p>[22:15] <TC> i was just thinking of bandwidth saving, yes</p>
|
|
<p>[22:15] <Ophite1> protocol would be the obvious way to go, yes.</p>
|
|
<p>[22:16] <jrand0m> hmm Ophite1? </p>
|
|
<p>[22:17] <jrand0m> (sorry, I'm sick again so might not be quite on top of my game today) </p>
|
|
<p>[22:17] <dm> how many LOC have you written jr?</p>
|
|
<p>[22:17] <TC> Ophite1, could i2p tunnel be modified to redirect?</p>
|
|
<p>[22:18] <TC> or could the browser do it on its own somehow?</p>
|
|
<p>[22:18] <jrand0m> dm> "find . -exec grep \\\; {} \; | wc -l" currently puts the sdk ~8kloc, the router ~11kloc </p>
|
|
<p>[22:18] <dm> okay thanks.</p>
|
|
<p>[22:19] <jrand0m> idn would want to support receiving requests from browsers. </p>
|
|
<p>[22:19] <Ophite1> would mean integrating idn into i2ptunnel. very ugly.</p>
|
|
<p>[22:19] <jrand0m> currently idn has a so-god-damn-easy api. </p>
|
|
<p>[22:19] <jrand0m> the api is the file system. </p>
|
|
<p>[22:19] <jrand0m> aka: </p>
|
|
<p>[22:19] <jrand0m> command=get </p>
|
|
<p>[22:19] <jrand0m> key=zGb1tPM6ARNRTWZLCWK4XXco2Ngk8ccx-ciDUCom~9U </p>
|
|
<p>[22:19] <jrand0m> saveAs=testGetOutput.txt </p>
|
|
<p>[22:20] <jrand0m> place that in a file in a directory, and voila. </p>
|
|
<p>[22:20] <jrand0m> (that was the easiest possible for me to implement and test with. certainly better ones can be found and made) </p>
|
|
<p>[22:21] <jrand0m> ok, so, yeah. thats the status. I'm hoping for a 0.2.2 release by this time next week, at least. </p>
|
|
<p>[22:22] <jrand0m> that'll include the first integration of the kademlia stuff, tunnel fixes, and i2cp updates. </p>
|
|
<p>[22:23] <jrand0m> ok, 2) transport futures </p>
|
|
<p>[22:23] <jrand0m> I don't like our tcp transport. and our udp transport is disabled. and our phttp transport is tweaky. </p>
|
|
<p>[22:23] * jrand0m would like to see the tcp transport replaced with tls / ssl / some-other-standard</p>
|
|
<p>[22:24] <Ophite1> link-level encryption is a requirement?</p>
|
|
<p>[22:24] <jrand0m> absolutely. </p>
|
|
<p>[22:25] <Ophite1> tls is _hell_ though. ask openssl.</p>
|
|
<p>[22:25] <tonious> ssh?</p>
|
|
<p>[22:25] <Ophite1> that, too.</p>
|
|
<p>[22:25] <jrand0m> yeah, I followed the nasty discussions on the cryptography list last month, with interest. </p>
|
|
<p>[22:25] <jrand0m> ssh is definitely a possibility. </p>
|
|
<p>[22:26] <jrand0m> safe, too, since we already essentially have the certificates (in the RouterInfo.publicKey) </p>
|
|
<p>[22:26] <Ophite1> but we're in java. we'd have to code it ourselves? :/</p>
|
|
<p>[22:26] <jrand0m> naw, there are ssl, tls, and ssh java libs </p>
|
|
<p>[22:26] *** Signoff: nickthief60934 (Ping timeout)</p>
|
|
<p>[22:26] <tonious> There's already at least one java ssh client. Dunno about servers.</p>
|
|
<p>[22:26] <Ophite1> re: security of such libs, given numerous high profile holes in openssl, openssh, et al?</p>
|
|
<p>[22:27] <jrand0m> Ophite1> most likely better than custom built code. </p>
|
|
<p>[22:27] <jrand0m> not that I have any reason to think there are exploits in the tcp transport as written. </p>
|
|
<p>[22:27] <jrand0m> but it has not been reviewed. </p>
|
|
<p>[22:28] *** nickthief60934 (~chatzilla@anon.iip) has joined channel #iip-dev</p>
|
|
<p>[22:28] <jrand0m> in any case, updating the transports isn't really on deck until january (after the 0.3 release goes out) </p>
|
|
<p>[22:28] <jrand0m> but if anyone wants to look into it and do some research, that'd be great </p>
|
|
<p>[22:29] <TC> how many devs do we have activly coding?</p>
|
|
<p>[22:29] <dm> 1! :)</p>
|
|
<p>[22:29] <jrand0m> you can see who commits via (Link: http://i2p.dnsalias.net/pipermail/i2p-cvs/2003-November/thread.html)http://i2p.dnsalias.net/pipermail/i2p-cvs/2003-November/thread.html </p>
|
|
<p>[22:29] <tonious> But he's got the strength of ten men....</p>
|
|
<p>[22:30] <jrand0m> mihi has been cleaning up some of my messes, thankfully :) </p>
|
|
<p>[22:30] <dm> haha, it's all jrandom :)</p>
|
|
<p>[22:30] <dm> nice way of saying "just me"</p>
|
|
<p>[22:31] <dm> I noticed that about mihi, when he got involved in frazaa, he just showed up one day and started cleaning up my (horrid) java. It was quite entertaining.</p>
|
|
<p>[22:31] <jrand0m> heh </p>
|
|
<p>[22:31] <Ophite1> people like that are very, very useful :)</p>
|
|
<p>[22:32] <jrand0m> quite </p>
|
|
<p>[22:32] <dm> "who's writing all these catch statements who do nothing ;)" -mihi</p>
|
|
<p>[22:32] <jrand0m> d'oooh </p>
|
|
<p>[22:33] <Ophite1> it's cause of reminders like that the code won't get as bad as freenet (we hope?) :)</p>
|
|
<p>[22:33] <jrand0m> if in 5 years any of the current i2p code is still in use, I'll be shocked. </p>
|
|
<p>[22:34] <jrand0m> (it had better be ported into finely tuned ASM code by then!) </p>
|
|
<p>[22:34] * Ophite1 makes his "java implementation is just a prototype" speech</p>
|
|
<p>[22:34] <dm> well, if you're still working on it 4 years from now, I'll guarantee that It'll be in use 5 years from now :)</p>
|
|
<p>[22:34] <TC> heh, comment it out and leave it in place</p>
|
|
<p>[22:35] <dm> is there a link to see the source on the web? not just the changes.</p>
|
|
<p>[22:35] <jrand0m> yes dm, http://i2p.dnsalias.net/ </p>
|
|
<p>[22:35] <dm> nm, found it.</p>
|
|
<p>[22:35] <jrand0m> :) </p>
|
|
<p>[22:35] <jrand0m> ok, 4) peer stats for selection </p>
|
|
<p>[22:36] <jrand0m> calling this a nebulus topic is one hell of an understatement. </p>
|
|
<p>[22:36] <jrand0m> doctoral theses could be written (and some have been) on how to choose what peers to use in an untrusted environment. </p>
|
|
<p>[22:36] <dm> public interface Job</p>
|
|
<p>[22:36] <dm> oops, meeting. Sorry didn't realize.</p>
|
|
<p>[22:37] <jrand0m> the good part is that half of our peer selection is already taken care of - the selection of peers to find other peers. </p>
|
|
<p>[22:37] <jrand0m> (thats the kademlia stuff) </p>
|
|
<p>[22:38] <jrand0m> the part thats left is the selection of peers to participate in tunnels, to route garlics, and to bounce replies through </p>
|
|
<p>[22:38] *** Signoff: dm (EOF From client)</p>
|
|
<p>[22:38] *** Signoff: TC (EOF From client)</p>
|
|
<p>[22:38] *** Signoff: leenookx (EOF From client)</p>
|
|
<p>[22:38] <jrand0m> what I'm thinking for 0.3 is just going to be a simple history of each peer, tested periodically </p>
|
|
<p>[22:39] *** TC (~TC@anon.iip) has joined channel #iip-dev</p>
|
|
<p>[22:39] *** leenookx (~leenookx@anon.iip) has joined channel #iip-dev</p>
|
|
<p>[22:39] <jrand0m> stats revolving around latency and uptime </p>
|
|
<p>[22:39] *** Signoff: soros (Client exiting)</p>
|
|
<p>[22:39] <Ophite1> suggest you be wary of including accurate information about bandwidth usage and latency in that stats.</p>
|
|
<p>[22:40] <Ophite1> as per my drunken questions.</p>
|
|
<p>[22:40] <Ophite1> perhaps a more indirect route, but it's an area that needs very careful, well considered attention.</p>
|
|
<p>[22:40] <jrand0m> hmm, with the intent of keeping the accurate info unknown, or to defeat predictabilities? </p>
|
|
<p>[22:40] <jrand0m> right </p>
|
|
<p>[22:41] <jrand0m> this discussion is for a release that won't go out until at least jan 1 </p>
|
|
<p>[22:42] * jrand0m understands and agrees that we want to avoid the predictabilities</p>
|
|
<p>[22:42] <jrand0m> but I think we want to gather and use as accurate info as we can, /then/ adjust for entropy </p>
|
|
<p>[22:42] <Ophite1> mere entropy alone may not be enough.</p>
|
|
<p>[22:43] <Ophite1> but, I need more research on this :/</p>
|
|
<p>[22:43] <jrand0m> true - randomly deciding to garlic route a message rather than tunnel route it, or to use a sequence of tunnels instead of one directly, etc </p>
|
|
<p>[22:44] <jrand0m> no rush, just wanted to plant the subject in the minds of those out there :) </p>
|
|
<p>[22:44] <jrand0m> ok, 4) apps </p>
|
|
<p>[22:45] <Ophite1> been troubling me for a week or more; though, I'm happy to announce I've run into a brick wall so far :)</p>
|
|
<p>[22:45] <jrand0m> w00t :) </p>
|
|
<p>[22:45] <Ophite1> inclusion of accurate or accurate+some%entropy statistics may make some attacks work though.</p>
|
|
<p>[22:46] <TC> oh, before apps i have a question</p>
|
|
<p>[22:46] <jrand0m> well, its always easy enough to simply discard accurate info as necessary </p>
|
|
<p>[22:46] *** Signoff: nickthief60934 (Excess Flood)</p>
|
|
<p>[22:46] <jrand0m> sure tc, whats up? </p>
|
|
<p>[22:46] <jrand0m> (stats will also (hopefully) make it easier to debug the network's operation while in development) </p>
|
|
<p>[22:46] <TC> when are manditory minium hop counts (or something like it) going to start?></p>
|
|
<p>[22:47] *** nickthief60934 (~chatzilla@anon.iip) has joined channel #iip-dev</p>
|
|
<p>[22:47] <jrand0m> right now the default minimum tunnel length is one non-local hop </p>
|
|
<p>[22:47] *** dm (~sd@anon.iip) has joined channel #iip-dev</p>
|
|
<p>[22:47] * TC didnt know that</p>
|
|
<p>[22:48] <Ophite1> which is okay as long as the non-local hop doesn't KNOW it's the only non-local hop.</p>
|
|
<p>[22:48] <jrand0m> that will be up'ed to 2-4 once things are more reliable </p>
|
|
<p>[22:48] <jrand0m> right Ophite1 </p>
|
|
<p>[22:48] <Ophite1> still one better than a gnunet shortcut, so it's cool :)</p>
|
|
<p>[22:48] <TC> oh, and how do speed improvements look?</p>
|
|
<p>[22:48] * jrand0m is basing that 2-4 # on o-r comments</p>
|
|
<p>[22:49] <Ophite1> temporary stats for network testing are okay by me, and very useful, but please bear in mind they may be a dangerous feature for production anonymity.</p>
|
|
<p>[22:49] <jrand0m> hmm, speed improvements will come through more reliable and faster peer selections, which is the 0.3 release </p>
|
|
<p>[22:49] <dm> jeez, I forgot how jr's code looks like it was written by a robot.</p>
|
|
<p>[22:49] <dm> Hmmm, that would explain a lot.</p>
|
|
<p>[22:50] <Ophite1> and through more scalable routing, which is next weeks' :)</p>
|
|
<p>[22:50] <jrand0m> heh sorry dm, I'll try to be more inconsistent ;) </p>
|
|
<p>[22:50] <Ophite1> (did I just mean discovery?)</p>
|
|
<p>[22:50] <jrand0m> right, its discovery, not routing, really. </p>
|
|
<p>[22:51] <jrand0m> i2p is scale free for normal comm. </p>
|
|
<p>[22:51] <jrand0m> (and o(log(n)) for discovery) </p>
|
|
<p>[22:51] <TC> i think your average ai who lives on the net would be pro i2p, what do you think dm?</p>
|
|
<p>[22:52] <dm> I think the average method size in this code is the smallest I've ever seen is what I think.</p>
|
|
<p>[22:53] <Ophite1> dm: clean. very good for a proto :)</p>
|
|
<p>[22:53] <dm> Do you comment as you go or do you go back and put those descriptions?</p>
|
|
<p>[22:53] <jrand0m> I comment when I get confused </p>
|
|
<p>[22:54] <jrand0m> (I really can't wait until collections are typesafe) </p>
|
|
<p>[22:54] <jrand0m> but, yeah, 4) apps :) </p>
|
|
<p>[22:54] <jrand0m> (unless anyone else has router / network questions?) </p>
|
|
<p>[22:55] <TC> pnope</p>
|
|
<p>[22:55] <jrand0m> ok, wiht isn't here, anyone else have any naming service thoughts / comments (mrecho?) </p>
|
|
<p>[22:55] <TC> a distributed naming server?</p>
|
|
<p>[22:56] <dm> is wiht ever here?</p>
|
|
<p>[22:56] <tonious> It could probably just sit on top of IDN.</p>
|
|
<p>[22:56] <jrand0m> yeah, I'd really love to see the naming service be a dht (perhaps reusing the idn / kademlia code) containing CA signed entries </p>
|
|
<p>[22:56] <TC> did co die?</p>
|
|
<p>[22:56] <jrand0m> exactly tonious </p>
|
|
<p>[22:57] <jrand0m> perhaps you're right, it could be an app that /uses/ idn, not just uses the code. hmmm... </p>
|
|
<p>[22:57] <jrand0m> that'd be Good. </p>
|
|
<p>[22:57] <tonious> Mebbe have a key fingerprint associated in case of collisions.</p>
|
|
<p>[22:57] <jrand0m> naw, co/wiht is around every few days </p>
|
|
<p>[22:57] <tonious> Wouldn't even necessarily need a centralized CA?</p>
|
|
<p>[22:57] <jrand0m> we'd need a CA if nyms are unique. </p>
|
|
<p>[22:58] <Ophite1> The CA signing chain should elminiate collisions.</p>
|
|
<p>[22:58] <jrand0m> (and we need nyms to be unique to do naming, really) </p>
|
|
<p>[22:58] <Ophite1> of course this makes CA key very important.</p>
|
|
<p>[22:58] <TC> how about dys dns? can i make my host file redirect to a eepsite?</p>
|
|
<p>[22:59] <tonious> TC: Not really. The OS doesn't even see i2p.</p>
|
|
<p>[22:59] <jrand0m> though we could have $nym.$ca be the thing looked up for </p>
|
|
<p>[22:59] <Ophite1> perhaps so important we want to distribute trust by it signing some second level .*.i2p domains, and have virtually all stuff under that, *.*.i2p - i.e., jrand0m.nym.i2p</p>
|
|
<p>[22:59] <jrand0m> right, though with tusko's ppp2p we can get i2p to IP mappings </p>
|
|
<p>[23:00] <tonious> I dunno. The idea of a CA in an essentially distributed system disagrees with me.</p>
|
|
<p>[23:00] <tonious> Not bein' a developer though I'm not gonna make a fuss :)</p>
|
|
<p>[23:01] <TC> dns really isnt that importent</p>
|
|
<p>[23:01] <jrand0m> tonious> we can do a web of trust, essentially. with, say, 8 seperate known CAs, everyone's local name server knows about those 8, and each of them manages a subdomain (e.g. tc.ca1 or Nightblade.ca2, or we add a .i2p at the end) </p>
|
|
<p>[23:01] <Ophite1> if you can think of a better way?</p>
|
|
<p>[23:02] <Nostradumbass> i have another question - its sort of spans the network-application area.</p>
|
|
<p>[23:02] <jrand0m> (thats really the degenerate case of a WoT) </p>
|
|
<p>[23:02] <Ophite1> what I said, sort of - get a root key to sign domains...</p>
|
|
<p>[23:02] <jrand0m> agreed tc </p>
|
|
<p>[23:02] <jrand0m> fire away Nostradumbass </p>
|
|
<p>[23:02] <Ophite1> someone gets com.i2p or nym.i2p...</p>
|
|
<p>[23:02] <Nostradumbass> has any thought been goven to guaranteed latency?</p>
|
|
<p>[23:02] <Ophite1> allow them to sign jrand0m.nym.i2p, or whatever.</p>
|
|
<p>[23:02] <Nostradumbass> i'm thinking of VoIP.</p>
|
|
<p>[23:03] <jrand0m> Ophite1> we wouldn't even need a .i2p key with that </p>
|
|
<p>[23:03] <tonious> Ophite1: What if the com ca gets taken out by an RIAA hitsquad or something?</p>
|
|
<p>[23:03] <jrand0m> Nostradumbass> you mean VoI2P? :) </p>
|
|
<p>[23:03] <Ophite1> then once you're done, destroy the master CA.</p>
|
|
<p>[23:03] <Nostradumbass> yes</p>
|
|
<p>[23:03] <Ophite1> tonious: then there's still the others.</p>
|
|
<p>[23:04] <Ophite1> or some system that requires conspiring groups to get the nym signing key?</p>
|
|
<p>[23:04] <jrand0m> Nostradumbass> we have already had people run shoutcast streams over i2p with some buffering at 96khz and no buffering problems at less speed. but there's latency. </p>
|
|
<p>[23:04] <Nostradumbass> with the upcoming release of cryptophone's (Link: http://www.cryptophone.de/)http://www.cryptophone.de/ source it could make an interesting app for i2p.</p>
|
|
<p>[23:04] <Ophite1> and a really freakin' big hashcash?</p>
|
|
<p>[23:04] <jrand0m> definitely Nostradumbass </p>
|
|
<p>[23:04] <tonious> Ophite1: Mebbe a majority signing protocol?</p>
|
|
<p>[23:04] *** Signoff: dm (Ping timeout)</p>
|
|
<p>[23:04] <jrand0m> tonious> majority is dangerous with sybil </p>
|
|
<p>[23:05] <Ophite1> tonious: otoh, it HAS to be non-repudiatory, and has to be able to guarantee non-collision.</p>
|
|
<p>[23:05] <Ophite1> and majority couldn't do that.</p>
|
|
<p>[23:05] <Ophite1> a majority of well known users maybe.</p>
|
|
<p>[23:05] <Ophite1> if it's a consolation, the internet has problems with this too (think Verisign).</p>
|
|
<p>[23:05] <jrand0m> right, WoT :) </p>
|
|
<p>[23:06] <Ophite1> but then WoT means that different people might have different ideas of who to trust, which violates non-collision maybe?</p>
|
|
<p>[23:06] *** thecrypto (~thecrypto@anon.iip) has joined channel #iip-dev</p>
|
|
<p>[23:06] <jrand0m> Nostradumbass> now if we could get some coders to work on a high performance RTSP over i2p tunnel... ;) </p>
|
|
<p>[23:06] <Ophite1> it's important, given the length of an "I2P address", but also hard.</p>
|
|
<p>[23:06] *** Drak0h (~Dr4k0h@anon.iip) has joined channel #iip-dev</p>
|
|
<p>[23:07] <Ophite1> Nostradumbass: not guaranteed.</p>
|
|
<p>[23:07] <TC> so how do we secure alias identification (important for commerce and seting up multiple eepsites)?</p>
|
|
<p>[23:07] <Nostradumbass> over-provisioning of bandwidth is often the only simple way to try and guarantee latency. is there going to ba any way for a node to determine the available bandwidht at another node, so as to ease routing for VoIP apps? </p>
|
|
<p>[23:07] <jrand0m> yes Nostradumbass, QoS can be done transparently within i2p, but unfortunately thats (I hate saying this) > 1.0 </p>
|
|
<p>[23:07] <tonious> Say we take root CAs out of it. You generate your key and sign your aliases.</p>
|
|
<p>[23:08] *** Signoff: thecrypto (EOF From client)</p>
|
|
<p>[23:08] <Ophite1> Nostradumbass: also, troublesome re some potential attacks?</p>
|
|
<p>[23:08] <tonious> You also specify who's keys you trust, ala PGP. I think redundancy is more important than collision.</p>
|
|
<p>[23:08] <Ophite1> tonious: so which jrand0m.nym.i2p did you want again?</p>
|
|
<p>[23:08] * jrand0m attacks the ns dht to get my nym back</p>
|
|
<p>[23:08] <Ophite1> if everyone doesn't trust the same, we might not be referring to the same thing when we use the same name.</p>
|
|
<p>[23:09] <Ophite1> and it would probably allow freenet-KSK-style collision wars.</p>
|
|
<p>[23:09] <jrand0m> right. either the naming service has CA signed nyms, or it just distributes H(destination) --> destination mappings </p>
|
|
<p>[23:09] <tonious> Just pop up a menu or something. Or if you're designing an application that talks to a specific server, give it the public key of the signing agent?</p>
|
|
<p>[23:10] <jrand0m> (and H(destination) == 42 chars as opposed to ~500 chars for a destination) </p>
|
|
<p>[23:10] <Ophite1> tonious: if you're going to give it public keys, you might as well just sling around I2P addresses.</p>
|
|
<p>[23:10] <Ophite1> now that's an interesting ideal</p>
|
|
<p>[23:10] <Ophite1> assuming sha-256 can't be reversed that yields 256-bit I2P addresses that could be "looked up" to reveal the structure.</p>
|
|
<p>[23:10] *** dm (~sd@anon.iip) has joined channel #iip-dev</p>
|
|
<p>[23:11] <Ophite1> I smell kademlia again.</p>
|
|
<p>[23:11] <jrand0m> :) </p>
|
|
<p>[23:11] <Ophite1> It can also be simply checked.</p>
|
|
<p>[23:11] <jrand0m> and there's existing code to reuse. </p>
|
|
<p>[23:11] <Ophite1> somehow, that makes sense. why weren't we doing this already? :)</p>
|
|
<p>[23:11] <jrand0m> because we want nyms </p>
|
|
<p>[23:12] <Ophite1> nyms for hosts?</p>
|
|
<p>[23:12] <jrand0m> but, I suppose, 42 chars is a good enough starting point </p>
|
|
<p>[23:12] <Ophite1> need a root CA for that :/</p>
|
|
<p>[23:12] <jrand0m> right </p>
|
|
<p>[23:12] <Ophite1> in the case where you don't want to trust a root ca?</p>
|
|
<p>[23:12] <Ophite1> 42 chars is short enough to paste.</p>
|
|
<p>[23:12] <jrand0m> you don't need a root CA, you can have a forest instead of a tree </p>
|
|
<p>[23:12] <Ophite1> 520 chars isn't :)</p>
|
|
<p>[23:12] <jrand0m> heh </p>
|
|
<p>[23:13] <Ophite1> but if you have a forest, how does anyone know which tree you're talking about?</p>
|
|
<p>[23:13] <Ophite1> you could slap a key in there, but then, ooh, we've got huge strings of random garbage again.</p>
|
|
<p>[23:13] <jrand0m> common suffix. $nym.$ca </p>
|
|
<p>[23:13] <Ophite1> well, I'd like $nym.$ca.i2p :)</p>
|
|
<p>[23:13] <Ophite1> avoid confusion :)</p>
|
|
<p>[23:13] <jrand0m> right. I mean, there are possible attacks. I dunno. I'm with TC though </p>
|
|
<p>[23:13] <jrand0m> good 'nuff for me </p>
|
|
<p>[23:14] <jrand0m> ok, /other/ apps :) </p>
|
|
<p>[23:14] <Ophite1> how do you know which ca is which?</p>
|
|
<p>[23:14] <Ophite1> you have a list? what signs the list?</p>
|
|
<p>[23:14] <jrand0m> i2pns.config </p>
|
|
<p>[23:14] *** Signoff: Drak0h (Ping timeout)</p>
|
|
<p>[23:14] <Ophite1> how're you going to get that?</p>
|
|
<p>[23:14] <TC> if i could make my own dns list, hostfile style i would be happy</p>
|
|
<p>[23:14] <jrand0m> on install </p>
|
|
<p>[23:15] <Ophite1> how are you going to verify those are the "right" keys?</p>
|
|
<p>[23:15] <Ophite1> ca substitution?</p>
|
|
<p>[23:15] <jrand0m> right tc, we can even do that without any distributed naming service </p>
|
|
<p>[23:15] <TC> because i say they are Ophite1</p>
|
|
<p>[23:15] <jrand0m> Ophite1> you aren't, any more than you're verifying that the source code is running the "real" i2p </p>
|
|
<p>[23:15] <TC> and if you trust me, you can download them off my eepsite</p>
|
|
<p>[23:16] <Ophite1> I suppose at the end of the day you can only reduce that to trust in one key being right, so :)</p>
|
|
<p>[23:16] <Ophite1> works for me, yeah.</p>
|
|
<p>[23:16] <Ophite1> as long as I get o1.i2p ;)</p>
|
|
<p>[23:16] <jrand0m> heh </p>
|
|
<p>[23:17] <tonious> Hmm. Revised threshold scheme: Each CA works the entire namespace, but a majority of CAs must agree before handing out subspace?</p>
|
|
<p>[23:17] <jrand0m> ok, last I heard tusko had found a way to get the ppp2p to run off windows machines as well as *nix </p>
|
|
<p>[23:17] <TC> it would make the i2p\internet doman system much more community based if we all passed around a huge hostfile\cheat sheet</p>
|
|
<p>[23:17] <Ophite1> tonious: back to majority again...</p>
|
|
<p>[23:17] <jrand0m> scary for attacks tonious </p>
|
|
<p>[23:17] <jrand0m> thats true TC </p>
|
|
<p>[23:17] <jrand0m> (and the value of such a community should not be underestimated) </p>
|
|
<p>[23:18] <Ophite1> tc: arpanet stylee?</p>
|
|
<p>[23:18] <tonious> Sigh. :)</p>
|
|
<p>[23:18] <Ophite1> I guess seeds have gotta come from somewhere, so yeah ;)</p>
|
|
<p>[23:18] <TC> to get a domain name, you would say this is me, and if people agreed they would change the file, and if they where trusted, others would download updates</p>
|
|
<p>[23:19] <jrand0m> sounds like that'd be a heavily retrieved key from idn :) </p>
|
|
<p>[23:19] <Ophite1> smells vaguely ca-like too :)</p>
|
|
<p>[23:19] <TC> you could even have a fight, with more then one file</p>
|
|
<p>[23:19] <Ophite1> the fidonet nodelist!</p>
|
|
<p>[23:19] <tonious> And in case of a netsplit there'd be multiple patchfiles.</p>
|
|
<p>[23:19] <Ophite1> ...doesn't scale.</p>
|
|
<p>[23:19] <jrand0m> with under a few hundred domains, its maintainable manually </p>
|
|
<p>[23:20] <TC> after a few hundred you go trusted</p>
|
|
<p>[23:20] <jrand0m> right Ophite1. this would just be until we argue out the Right Way. </p>
|
|
<p>[23:20] <tonious> It might be enough to jumpstart a WoT.</p>
|
|
<p>[23:20] <jrand0m> (or we convince people that CAs aren't that bad ;) </p>
|
|
<p>[23:20] <jrand0m> true tonious </p>
|
|
<p>[23:20] <Ophite1> if you're trusting someone to agree that someone is someone else, that's a CA, not just a nodelist :)</p>
|
|
<p>[23:21] <tonious> Heh. Sorry for bein' the skeptic.</p>
|
|
<p>[23:21] <TC> jrand0m, in the end i dont whant to be dependent on CA's</p>
|
|
<p>[23:21] <Ophite1> just allow people to give space below theirs...</p>
|
|
<p>[23:21] <Ophite1> castyle -- and those on the nodelist to be the cas.</p>
|
|
<p>[23:21] <Ophite1> course then it's all "which ca is jrand0m on?"</p>
|
|
<p>[23:21] <jrand0m> CA's aren't necessarily choke points. if they're unsatisfactory, we replace them. </p>
|
|
<p>[23:22] <tonious> Ophite1: I like that.</p>
|
|
<p>[23:22] <Ophite1> point. CA being crapped out would be Big Enough News for someone to simply replace them.</p>
|
|
<p>[23:22] <Ophite1> tonious: so is it slashdot.org or slashdot.com? goatse.cx? :)</p>
|
|
<p>[23:22] <dm> what does CA stand for? :)</p>
|
|
<p>[23:22] <Ophite1> certification authority.</p>
|
|
<p>[23:23] <dm> k, thanks.</p>
|
|
<p>[23:23] <tonious> Heh. That's where your own WoT comes in, Ophite1.</p>
|
|
<p>[23:23] <Ophite1> tonious: yes, but I still have to see goatse once before I realise it's the wrong bloody one. :)</p>
|
|
<p>[23:23] <tonious> 'I trust Ophite1 not to show that horrible asshole, and he signed slashdot.org'</p>
|
|
<p>[23:23] <jrand0m> lol </p>
|
|
<p>[23:24] <Ophite1> so essentially you're trusting a limited subset of people, not to be horrible assholes.</p>
|
|
<p>[23:24] * jrand0m reserves the right to be an asshole at times</p>
|
|
<p>[23:24] <Ophite1> and to hand out domains to the rest.</p>
|
|
<p>[23:24] <Ophite1> at least one of which ought, really, to be a trent-style first-comes-first-served bot.</p>
|
|
<p>[23:24] <Ophite1> (with.. yes... hashcash.)</p>
|
|
<p>[23:24] <tonious> Yeah. And there may be namespace collisions by people who are outside my WoT...</p>
|
|
<p>[23:25] <jrand0m> yup, and another should be something like thetower's tfee/subpage redirects </p>
|
|
<p>[23:25] <Ophite1> tonious: something that you can actually USE might be appreciated. it's just a naming system. :)</p>
|
|
<p>[23:25] <tonious> Heh.</p>
|
|
<p>[23:25] <Ophite1> the good thing about multiple cas is that they can do their own thing re: that kind of thing - different policies.</p>
|
|
<p>[23:26] *** Signoff: nickthief60934 (Ping timeout)</p>
|
|
<p>[23:26] <jrand0m> ok, other apps... </p>
|
|
<p>[23:26] <jrand0m> IM? </p>
|
|
<p>[23:26] <Ophite1> finally :)</p>
|
|
<p>[23:26] <Ophite1> signed nyms! :)</p>
|
|
<p>[23:26] <tonious> Sorry Ophite1 :)</p>
|
|
<p>[23:26] <jrand0m> !thwap Ophite1 </p>
|
|
<p>[23:27] <Ophite1> what, what are you all looking at? :)</p>
|
|
<p>[23:27] <Ophite1> yes, WoT would be appropriate for _that_ :)</p>
|
|
<p>[23:27] <dm> I think I remember who was doing IM... thecrypto?</p>
|
|
<p>[23:27] <Ophite1> in fact... elgamal 2048-bit... dsa 1024-bit... sha-256... sounds kind of familiar. openpgp?</p>
|
|
<p>[23:27] <jrand0m> yodel was in here the other day, mentioned that they had tried out running yodel's xml-rpc interface over with their own local router, and it worked. so, yay </p>
|
|
<p>[23:27] *** nickthief60934 (~chatzilla@anon.iip) has joined channel #iip-dev</p>
|
|
<p>[23:28] <tonious> I've managed to get SOAP going on mine, too.</p>
|
|
<p>[23:28] <jrand0m> yup dm </p>
|
|
<p>[23:28] <tonious> No useful apps, beyond 'Yep, it works' so far.</p>
|
|
<p>[23:28] <jrand0m> hehe </p>
|
|
<p>[23:29] *** Signoff: nickthief60934 (Excess Flood)</p>
|
|
<p>[23:29] <Nostradumbass> tonious: so SOAP over i2p = Black SOAP?</p>
|
|
<p>[23:29] * jrand0m really wants to get idn up and running so we can use i2p as an IP layer, not a TCP layer</p>
|
|
<p>[23:29] <jrand0m> lol Nostradumbass </p>
|
|
<p>[23:29] <Ophite1> nicename :)</p>
|
|
<p>[23:29] <tonious> Nostradumbass: Yep, you got it.</p>
|
|
<p>[23:30] <tonious> Now I can set up my own I2P casino. w00t!</p>
|
|
<p>[23:30] *** nickthief60934 (~chatzilla@anon.iip) has joined channel #iip-dev</p>
|
|
<p>[23:30] <jrand0m> w33wt </p>
|
|
<p>[23:30] <jrand0m> ok, I think thats 'bout it for the apps </p>
|
|
<p>[23:30] <jrand0m> 5) ...? </p>
|
|
<p>[23:31] <jrand0m> hi </p>
|
|
<p>[23:31] <Ophite1> tonious: cool. we could use a few of those. donate a percentage to the i2p project? :)</p>
|
|
<p>[23:31] <TC> merchandising</p>
|
|
<p>[23:31] <tonious> Has anybody thought of a C implementation of I2P?</p>
|
|
<p>[23:31] <jrand0m> yeah, rent out colo boxes and run routers :) </p>
|
|
<p>[23:32] <jrand0m> tonious> lets wait until we get the router protocol implemented and thoroughly reviewed before porting ;) </p>
|
|
<p>[23:32] <tonious> Or anonymous colo: Behind an I2P router and no internet routing :)</p>
|
|
<p>[23:32] <Ophite1> merchandising = logo.</p>
|
|
<p>[23:32] <TC> stickers, t-shirts, hats, we need the logo</p>
|
|
<p>[23:32] <Ophite1> tonious: after it's working and anonymous and stuff? of course.</p>
|
|
<p>[23:32] <tonious> Yeah, but I'm still running my P2 and I'm a poor guy.</p>
|
|
<p>[23:32] <tonious> :(</p>
|
|
<p>[23:32] <Ophite1> i2p needs a good logo.</p>
|
|
<p>[23:32] <Nostradumbass> yes</p>
|
|
<p>[23:32] <Ophite1> I mean, the internet doesn't have a logo, but that's just bad marketing. :)</p>
|
|
<p>[23:32] <dm> I like the one on the WIKI.</p>
|
|
<p>[23:32] <TC> also, each made-for-i2p program needs its own tweeked version, or take off of the logo</p>
|
|
<p>[23:32] <jrand0m> how about a transparent logo... it'd, be, like, everywhere, dood </p>
|
|
<p>[23:33] <Ophite1> an invisible logo. heh.</p>
|
|
<p>[23:33] <tonious> A 1 pixel by 1 pixel blank gif?</p>
|
|
<p>[23:33] <jrand0m> definnitely </p>
|
|
<p>[23:33] <Ophite1> tonious: we'd be sued for copyright infringment? :)</p>
|
|
<p>[23:33] <tonious> Ha!</p>
|
|
<p>[23:33] <Ophite1> ("Hey, that's OUR blank gif!")</p>
|
|
<p>[23:33] <jrand0m> lol </p>
|
|
<p>[23:33] <Ophite1> Hey, if John Cage can do it...</p>
|
|
<p>[23:33] <tonious> So we leave our names in the comments field :)</p>
|
|
<p>[23:33] <Nostradumbass> Ophite1: how about a stream roller paving over the Internet?</p>
|
|
<p>[23:33] <jrand0m> heh we're just rendering his audio </p>
|
|
<p>[23:34] <Ophite1> that one on the bottom looks the best imho.</p>
|
|
<p>[23:34] <tonious> I like the one on the top. It's simple. Like me.</p>
|
|
<p>[23:34] <Ophite1> with the arc design.</p>
|
|
<p>[23:35] <Ophite1> something that is small, very simple, and above all would work well as an icon, or in the system tray :)</p>
|
|
<p>[23:35] <Ophite1> and yes, which can be customised and used as a basis for logos of apps.</p>
|
|
<p>[23:35] <jrand0m> right </p>
|
|
<p>[23:35] <dm> How about a black circle with white fill.</p>
|
|
<p>[23:35] <Ophite1> that arc would be a good start (colour changes?)</p>
|
|
<p>[23:35] <dm> or a triangle, maybe a square!</p>
|
|
<p>[23:35] <dm> a parallelogram!</p>
|
|
<p>[23:37] <tonious> Heh. Open up a cafepress store...</p>
|
|
<p>[23:37] <Ophite1> god no, not cafepress.</p>
|
|
<p>[23:37] <dm> a white cloud!</p>
|
|
<p>[23:37] <Ophite1> we demand class. ... thinkgeek. ;-)</p>
|
|
<p>[23:37] <dm> little fluffy cloud.</p>
|
|
<p>[23:38] <TC> it would look toomuch like a cumpuddle in minature</p>
|
|
<p>[23:38] * jrand0m associates clouds with the sky, thankyouverymuch</p>
|
|
<p>[23:38] <tonious> Ophite1: First we've gotta convince 'em that we're whitehat.</p>
|
|
<p>[23:39] <TC> no, lets be black hat</p>
|
|
<p>[23:39] <jrand0m> tonious> can militant anarchists be whitehats too? </p>
|
|
<p>[23:39] * TC doesnt like ppl in hats</p>
|
|
<p>[23:39] <tonious> Dunno.</p>
|
|
<p>[23:39] * tonious wears a grey fedora FWIW.</p>
|
|
<p>[23:39] <Nostradumbass> how about a white and a black hat?</p>
|
|
<p>[23:39] <TC> and modulus would say somthing about class distinction or something</p>
|
|
<p>[23:40] <dm> a small picture of uncle sam's face?</p>
|
|
<p>[23:40] <TC> checkered hat?</p>
|
|
<p>[23:40] <jrand0m> heh tc </p>
|
|
<p>[23:40] <Nostradumbass> or white and a black wizzard hats</p>
|
|
<p>[23:40] <Ophite1> I am NOT a white hat. How dare you insinuate that. I want an apology.</p>
|
|
<p>[23:41] <TC> or a black dunce hat</p>
|
|
<p>[23:41] <jrand0m> well, anyway... </p>
|
|
<p>[23:42] <tonious> "i2p inside"?</p>
|
|
<p>[23:42] <jrand0m> heh </p>
|
|
<p>[23:42] <dm> I, too, pee...</p>
|
|
<p>[23:42] <jrand0m> dm> on a calvin sticker! </p>
|
|
<p>[23:42] <Ophite1> "i2p ... somewhere"</p>
|
|
<p>[23:42] <TC> so, logo ppl, come on! so can nop set us up a i2p cafepress site?</p>
|
|
<p>[23:43] * jrand0m repeats the mantra No PR until its ready.</p>
|
|
<p>[23:43] <Nostradumbass> dm: yeah, make it a "Concentration" style chrade logo-gram.</p>
|
|
<p>[23:43] <Nostradumbass> <eye> 2 and a pee-ing penis.</p>
|
|
<p>[23:44] <dm> Let's set a date.</p>
|
|
<p>[23:44] <jrand0m> heh, yeah, and you'll have your mother click on that icon? </p>
|
|
<p>[23:44] <dm> March 1st.</p>
|
|
<p>[23:44] <Nostradumbass> grab it, in fact :)</p>
|
|
<p>[23:44] <tonious> My mother disapproves of encryption :)</p>
|
|
<p>[23:44] *** UserX (~User@anon.iip) has joined channel #iip-dev</p>
|
|
<p>[23:44] <dm> Slashdot article! No matter how far (or not) jrand0m has gotten!</p>
|
|
<p>[23:44] <dm> Let's pile on the pressure.</p>
|
|
<p>[23:44] <Ophite1> nooooooo.</p>
|
|
<p>[23:44] <Ophite1> not yet!</p>
|
|
<p>[23:45] <jrand0m> damn dm, if you pulled that date out of thin air, you're good. in my palm I have 1.0 slotted as ~ march 1 </p>
|
|
<p>[23:45] * dm slaps Ophite1</p>
|
|
<p>[23:45] <dm> i said march 1st.</p>
|
|
<p>[23:45] <Ophite1> the appropriate time to promote is when we have a cool shiny thing to wave at them.</p>
|
|
<p>[23:45] <Nostradumbass> please, no slashdot till the network is ready for the onslaught.</p>
|
|
<p>[23:45] <jrand0m> right </p>
|
|
<p>[23:45] <dm> I'm good, what can I say.</p>
|
|
<p>[23:45] <Ophite1> I call launch date April 4th.</p>
|
|
<p>[23:45] <Ophite1> 04/04/04 ;)</p>
|
|
<p>[23:45] <jrand0m> no PR until AFTER 1.0 comes out. </p>
|
|
<p>[23:45] <Nostradumbass> Mojo was almost destroyed by /.</p>
|
|
<p>[23:46] <dm> no, none of this rational thinking. March 1st, end of story.</p>
|
|
<p>[23:46] <jrand0m> ooOOo Ophite1 </p>
|
|
<p>[23:46] * jrand0m senses that I'm going to have to submit to /. to get them to NOT post dm^H^Han anonymous person's article</p>
|
|
<p>[23:46] <Ophite1> no, don't do that. malda doesn't give a shit, and he'll post THAT :)</p>
|
|
<p>[23:46] <jrand0m> heh </p>
|
|
<p>[23:47] <dm> Yes, you will be ridiculed by my post: "Em, like, there's this like anonymous cool program that's better than kazaa, I2P it's awesome, it's fast, DSA124. yeah"</p>
|
|
<p>[23:47] <jrand0m> anyway, as things progress, http://wiki.invisiblenet.net/iip-wiki?I2PRoadmap will be updated </p>
|
|
<p>[23:48] <dm> time to pack.</p>
|
|
<p>[23:49] <jrand0m> (and some day I'm going to take a week off and go snowboarding) </p>
|
|
<p>[23:49] *** soros (~soros@anon.iip) has joined channel #iip-dev</p>
|
|
<p>[23:49] <jrand0m> yeah, we're about the 2hour mark. </p>
|
|
<p>[23:49] <jrand0m> time to... </p>
|
|
<p>[23:49] * jrand0m *baf*'s the meeting closed.</p>
|
|
</div>
|
|
{% endblock %} |